[IChooseY0u]

> They may view an instructor as an opponent standing in the way of the grade they want. And they see “getting the right answers” as the goal of education because that’s how you secure that grade. But that’s no more true than thinking that logging a count of reps is the goal of bodybuilding.

The author is essentially saying "you're doing education wrong" to students who never signed up for the author's version of what education is for. Students are making a rational economic calculation: they need a degree to get a job.

[FloorEgg]

> Students are making a rational economic calculation: they need a degree to get a job.

Except it's not true. They don't need a degree to get a job. Maybe they need a degree to get a very specific job, but then they will be doing what the degree taught, and so they might as well learn how to do it.

This whole "I need a degree to get a job" is the problem. It's how people end up with $200k in student loans working front line retail.

The default natural state rewards value creation. Corrupt/artificial systems don't, so there are exceptions. If students reframe their reasoning from "get a degree to get a job" to "learn how to create lots of value for others in a way I find sustainable and satisfying" they are far more likely to enjoy the lives they build for themselves.

The author is more right about this than you give them credit for. Students who are getting a degree just to get a job are doing it wrong. If they don't enjoy doing the things the degree teaches, they really won't enjoy what comes after they graduate.

[jjmarr]

Most white collar jobs require a university degree. They don't care what it's in or your GPA or if you understood history/philosophy/English. Just that you have literally any degree.

[FloorEgg]

I don't think this is true anymore.

I agree some do, but I am very skeptical about most. It's also changing rapidly.

To be clear I'm not disagreeing that a manufacturing engineer role would require a degree in engineering (and countless other examples). I'm pushing back on specifically "most white collar jobs require any degree regardless of what it is".

I believe that assumption is incorrect and harmful.

[jjmarr]

It's truer than ever because of applicant tracking systems that allow HR to automatically filter out people without degrees before they are even seen by the hiring manager.

In combination with oversaturation of university graduates, it's an easy box HR can tick to lower the applicant pool.

[FloorEgg]

If that's true, it's painfully tragic.

Still comes off as jaded and pessimistically biased. Not representative of whole white collar, just some segment in it.

It's VERY different than my direct experience, and indirect exposure including statements I've read about hiring policies at attractive employers.

[xg15]

This sound pretty insane on its own. If you don't care about the content of the degree at all, what does the degree even prove?

[jjmarr]

It proves you could sit through 4 years of university and not fail out.

Since basically anyone can graduate high school nowadays, this proves you put at least some effort into your education without being forced to.

It doesn't really matter if it's low signal, just that it narrows the applicant pool.

[hackable_sand]

Mostly it proves you have money

University is not difficult. Money is

[FloorEgg]

University has never been more not difficult. Cheating is rampant and the whole institution is organized arpund prioritizing students graduating over protecting the integrity of credentials.

[hackable_sand]

That may all be true

But you still need a degree to get a job

[FloorEgg]

As someone with no degree and a great career, who works with others that don't have degrees, and has hired many people who don't have degrees, and has several friends without degrees who also have great careers, I know this isn't true in absolute terms.

[musicale]

> they need a degree to get a job

I see it as wanting to receive the credential (biology degree) while avoiding what it is supposed to signify (having learned something about biology.) But why would regular companies want graduates in English Literature, or History? Graduates should still be able to read, think critically, and write clearly - and the way you learn to do that is by actually doing the assignments.

Of course a more cynical view is that much of formal education is just teaching compliance (which employers also value), but college usually grants more non-financial freedom than a typical corporate workplace.

In any case, I guess it's good that you can't use ChatGPT to pass driving tests or medical licensing exams. Yet.

[hn92726819]

How reductive. Sure, there are paper mills and non-reputable colleges that hand out degrees, but that's clearly not what the author is writing about ('lecturers' there won't care about students cheating anyway).

So with that, what student expects college to be an easy pass to a job? College has always involved work, not a coupon for a free job.

> students who never signed up for the author's version of what education is

What? That's what college is. Students sign up to be taught however the college wants to teach. Students can choose to apply to colleges that match their style, but that hasn't changed at all.

I'm curious what you think students expect when they enroll in a reputable college