[u_sama]

I mean yeah, the "far right" is just a reaction to the migration policy, globalization effects and the suicidal EU energy policy which send shockwaves in its industry and larger economy. Denmark shows that if a normal, even social democrat party tackles the second order effects of immigration the population will not turn to the extreme parties.

This explains the fact that aside from the slopulist and bombastic subjects, they don't have any real plan or serious depth in their policy proposals.

If the traditional parties fixed those issues, and most notably the migration policies, the ECHR extensive read of asylum/immigration rights the whole momentum behind them would disappear. I think Bardella will unironically continue Macron I's economic reforms of liberalizing the market and removing the extreme social protections which in times of abundance are ok, but in times of recession seem to enhance the unemployment and productivity issues even more.

[vrganj]

The entire EU is dying out slowly from low birth rates. Our only hope is replenishing our population through immigration and anyone that argues against that is arguing against the survival of Europe.

[u_sama]

That doesn’t work though, over 1 generation the TFR and family completedness of 2ng generation immigrants coverges to 80-90% of the native one and over 2 it seems to be on par or lower.

This is without all the social issues of putting them in ghettos and pulling up the ladders to their kids to integrate in society.

It works like debt, in the sense that you are taking a band-aid solution and kicking the can 15 years but they have been doing it since the 1980s so the can is here now.

[vrganj]

So you just keep adding new folks? That's my point, we need immigration, systematically, or our societies are dead.

[u_sama]

Ok and people are blank pages without cultures or tendencies, which means we can just graft them without issues?

There is also a dilution process by which you assimilate or adapt a population and if the % of new people is too high the culture that produced those societies basically disappears.

[vrganj]

You need integration initiatives and strong enforcement. Integration is a two-party process, if either side doesn't take it seriously, it won't happen. We should be generous in giving out chances, but strict in taking them away from people that prove they're not making use of them.

The last argument is empirically incorrect. Think of Vienna for example, most of the population there has roots from all over the Austrian Empire. Yet, it's distinctly Austrian.

It's not a given, it takes effort. But it can be done.

[mytailorisrich]

But that's not the survival of Europe. That's erasing Europe for the sake of an ever increasing labour and consumers pool (which seems to be the only thing that matters in this brave new world).

Population cannot grow forever, and for the sake of the planet it may even good if it dropped. So this is something that we'll have to face at one point and the argument that there is not choice but mass immigration is a fallacy pushed to silence dissenting opinions (along with labelling dissenters racist and far-right).