[hansmayer]

Well - that's the thing - toy calculators are easy on the "muscle memory". The operations and data types will be mostly similar in syntax across all these languages. If however you wanted to do something more akin to a real world example, using these and those frameworks... it would probably look different. I wasn't disputing the knowledge of multiple languages btw - some of us had experiences in languages from the times way earlier than C# and Java. The point is for real world work you wont quite do toy calculators and the people pushing for "AI writing all the code" are not worried about you retaining the "muscle memory" to write addition and substraction functions....

[embedding-shape]

That's not how I understood other's experience to be, they're describing something that won't let them even write toy calculators. Selected quotes:

> But now, I'm useless. My mind has turned to pudding. I cannot remember basic boilerplate stuff

> Played with these coding agents for the last couple weeks and instantly noticed the brainrot when I was staring at an empty vim screen trying to type a skeleton helloworld in C.

This is very different from what I'm (not) experiencing. My test was for if I can remember the basic syntax of the language itself, I was never a big framework user, so of course using a framework is about the least interesting test I could do of myself.

Instead, I did the bare minimum to see if my "mind has turned to pudding" or "instantly noticed the brainrot", which would have been visible even for a toy calculator, obviously.

> the people pushing for "AI writing all the code" are not worried about you retaining the "muscle memory" to write addition and substraction functions

What are they worried about then? From your perspective, sounds like they're worried about "using these and those frameworks" but that's far from "real world work" in my experience, and really the least interesting thing you could remember as a developer.

[hansmayer]

> I was never a big framework user,

So you only ever wrote code in academic setting? Not being sarcastic, but no realistic software development in commercial setting will happen without frameworks.

> That's not how I understood other's experience to be, they're describing something that won't let them even write toy calculators. Selected quotes:

Well that is literally not what they are describing. The man said "boilerplate code". Again, unless most of the code you wrote was code used in purely academic setting, whether research or teaching, we all understand boilerplate code to mean something like "code to open a file descriptor / iterate through database rows / poll web server for results" etc. So the typical stuff you would implement while relying on abstractions and concepts someone else already defined for you.

> What are they worried about then?

If I had to guess - they are worried about the growing LLM-backlash working against their hoped-for-industry-wide-adoption and their infinite money at some point running out, because at the end of the day, NVIDIA lending OpenAI 100B to invest in MS Azure and Azure using those 100B to purchase NVIDIA chips...is starting to look a lot like circular financing.

> sounds like they're worried about "using these and those frameworks" but that's far from "real world work" in my experience

Again, if your area of work is academic or teaching, then this probably matches your own real world experience. The problem for the LLM-crowd is that there is a lot more people here whose "real world experience" are not toy calculators and isolated algorithm implementation, but actually yes, using "this and that framework", as otherwise the implementation would take un-realistically long. I may know how TLS works, but would I implement it's handshake routine on my own? Only if I did it as a personal excercise, not in a commercial scenario. Same for UI, same for DB ORMs, etc. You name it.