[lateforwork]

> having workers with limited negotiating power

Sorry, this is 100% false. Companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, Meta etc. do not hire H-1Bs in order to depress wages. That does happen, but not at these companies. It typically happens when hiring IT workers.

[acdha]

If it’s “100% false”, I’d think you could have addressed the point. Do you think that H1-Bs have had the same negotiating power as permanent residents and citizens? Do you think that companies-especially the huge contractors and enterprise vendors who hired so many of them—did not exploit them?

I’m not saying that there aren’t people who really lived up to the idea that the best in the world were coming here—I’ve known a few of them myself—but that there were a much greater number of people who were not in that class and it wasn’t exactly a secret that their managers knew they could be imposed on more than their equivalently-skilled colleagues.

[newfriend]

The mere presence of H1-B workers depresses wages systemically.

[intended]

I think they are making a meta argument?

That H1B labour allowed other firms to build tech, which kept those firms competitive, creating a deeper economy and experienced bench.

That depth then enabled more advanced tech firms to be born.

At least thats what I think they are saying.

The analogy would be that China took over low tech manufacturing, and then because of that were able to develop expertise to move up the value chain.

At the same time, supply demand curves are real. If you have more workers, it should result in competition that drives down wages. (ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL)

There was a distinction being made between Tech and IT, which I am not too sure about.

[munksbeer]

> If you have more workers, it should result in competition that drives down wages. (ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL)

Sort of a meaningless statement when all things are definitely not equal.

If there are 5 million people in a country, or 200 million, the theory of too many workers means the 5 million people country should be paying everyone vastly more.

But that is trivially untrue.

Economies grow and shrink and adapt around the number people.

[intended]

> ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL

> Sort of a meaningless statement when all things are definitely not equal.

Hey, don’t look to me for a defense of the weaknesses of economic models.

At the same time you can’t really discuss complex systems like economies where one part affects another, without holding some of the factors in stasis.

Centris paribus does extreme amounts of heavy lifting.

[thatfrenchguy]

You essentially have no data to back this up though, especially given the filed H1B/L-1 labor data for big tech is first year of employement with only base salary, which bears no ressemblance to what their wages will be even just 3 years in.

[lateforwork]

In the early 1990s a good software engineer was paid $40K starting salary, and good companies like Sun Microsystems paid $45K. If you adjust that for inflation it is around $100K. But good companies in silicon valley today pay $120K plus stock grants (so around $170K or so), and Meta and Google pay much more.

So software engineer salaries have gone up dramatically in the last 35 years H-1B visa has been around. In fact, the H-1B visa is the reason the salaries have gone up. Without it the industry would be stagnant, just like non-tech S&P 500 companies and most companies in Europe in the same time period.

[newfriend]

Are you trying to argue that increased supply of labor is responsible for increasing wages?

As others have said, H1-B has been good for companies, and bad for American workers. The same companies who were found to be colluding to keep wages down.

Europe is stagnant because of regulation, not because of immigration.

[lateforwork]

> Are you trying to argue that increased supply of labor is responsible for increasing wages?

I am saying the reason silicon valley exists is because of the immigration of the smartest people from around the world. High Tech needs the best in the world, not the best in the US.

Consider the seminal research paper that kicked off the AI revolution (titled "Attention is all you need"). It was written by 2 Indians, 1 German, 1 British Canadian, 1 Pole, 1 Ukrainian, and 2 US born people. These people came to America, worked together and changed the world as we know it. Why would we want to stop it? Has this immigration been bad for American workers? Far from it. These immigrants are the lifeblood of the tech industry, without them the center of tech would be Beijing.

[ethanwillis]

Why not "2 Indian born people, 1 German born person, 1 Canadian born person, 1 Polish born person, 1 Ukrainian born person, and 2 US born people?"

[mikert89]

you fundamentally dont understand economics

[bradlys]

These companies were all guilty of wage collusion years ago. Their culture has not gotten any better about this since.