[CGMthrowaway]

We are probably talking past each other around different understandings of what The Church is. To be clear, the church includes parishioners in full communion, baptized protestants, and non-christians ordered toward the church.. it also has visible (hierarchy, canon law etc) and spiritual (holy spirit..) realities. It also works in mysterious ways

If we can agree on that we are closer than you might think. And when I said "not dependent on the church" i was referring not to what I just defined above, but rather what in my head i figured (perhaps wrongly) you were more narrowly referring to.

To continue, at risk of muddying the waters that might have just cleared a little, the nature of the church (a divine mystery) is such that it can be known experientially while never being fully exhausted by human understanding