[Aurornis]

> which is that the actual programming is not the hard part. Figuring out what exactly needs programmed is the hard part.

I’m growing tired of this aphorism because I’ve been in enough situations where it was not true.

Some times the programming part really is very hard even when it’s easy to know what needs to be built. I’ve worked on some projects where the business proposition was conceptually simple but the whole reason the business opportunity existed was that it was an extremely hard engineering problem.

I can see how one could go through a career where the programming itself is not that hard if you’re mostly connecting existing frameworks together and setting up all of the tests and CI infrastructure around it. I have also had jobs where none of the programming problems were all that complicated but we spent hundreds of hours dealing with all of the meetings, documents and debates surrounding every change. Those were not my favorite companies

[llmssuck]

> it was an extremely hard engineering problem

But that is not programming then? Doing voice recognition in the 90s, missile guidance systems, you name it, those are hard things, but it's not the "programming" that's hard. It's the figuring out how to do it. The algorithms, the strategy, etc.

I might be misunderstanding, but I cannot see how programming itself can be challenging in any way. It's not trivial per se or quickly over, but I fail to see how it can be anything but mechanical in and of itself. This feels like "writing" as in grammar and typing is the hard part of writing a book.

[simonw]

I count "figuring out how to do it" as part of the work of programming, personally.

[llmssuck]

Fair enough, but I think that never really worked all that well. What I mean is that the term "programming" would then essentially cover anything and everything that can be put into an algorithm of some sort. Neutrino detection, user management dashboards, CRUD APIs, basically everything is programming.

It would explain a lot of misunderstanding between "programmers" though.

[rstuart4133]

It's true that we often split software engineering into two pieces: doing the design and implementing the code. In fact I often prefer to think of it as computer systems engineering because the design phase often goes well beyond software. You have to think about what networks are used, what the hardware form factor should be used, even how many check digits should be put on a barcode.

But then you go onto say this:

> But that is not programming then? Doing voice recognition in the 90s, missile guidance systems, you name it, those are hard things, but it's not the "programming" that's hard. It's the figuring out how to do it. The algorithms, the strategy, etc.

That implies LLMs can't help with design of something that needs voice recognition and missile guidance systems. If that's your claim, it's wrong. In fact they are far better at being sounding boards and search engines than they are at coding. They make the same large number of mistakes in design tasks as they do in software coding, but in design tasks the human is constantly in the loop, examining all of the LLM's output so the errors don't matter so much. In vibe coding the human removes themselves from the loop to a large extent. The errors become shipped bugs.

[Anamon]

They can help with those tasks because there are decades of published research on them. I don't think LLMs change anything here. Even before LLMs, it wouldn't have been efficient to ignore readily available lessons from those who solved similar problems before. As you put it, LLMs can be great search engines. It's not that they changed the task.

Whether you have to solve a problem that is hard today because there aren't many available resources, or something well discussed that you can research with Google or an LLM, I don't think it changes anything about their argument that once you know what to do, actually turning it into working code is comparatively mundane and unchallenging, and always has been to some degree.

[rstuart4133]

> They can help with those tasks because there are decades of published research on them.

No.

I suspect the underlying meme behind this is "LLMs can't think, they are just stochastic parrots". If you define an LLM to be the thing the model builders train by ingesting and compressing information on the internet, in a way that yields a very convenient if somewhat unreliable search engine, then that's true. But if you define them that way, the modern models like Opus, Gemini, GLM and so on aren't pure LLMs, and haven't been for a while. They still have an LLM inside them, but have other things bolted on like attention heads, context windows, and Chain of Thought. These things outperform humans at some tasks that require "thinking".

Glasswing is an example. Before Glasswing human "researchers" could find a solution to a particular problem, the "lets find an exploit in this software" problem, as a particular rate. Now with Glasswing, it's orders of magnitude faster than that rate. The same thing has happened in other areas, like protein folding and weather prediction. These models aren't reproducing something they've seen before. They are producing things we consider new - like creating an exploit for a vulnerability they discovered.

With all the evidence around if you are still hanging onto the idea these models can't help with many tasks by doing what we call "thinking", you are in denial.

[satvikpendem]

Well yes, those are all programming, just as there are many different types of engineering, civil, mechanical, nuclear etc.

[stefs]

one example i come back to is multithreaded layouting/rendering browser engines. it was mentioned in the servo blog post back then when mozilla worked on it: "we tried it in c++ but it was simply too hard and complicated" (the argument was that they were able to do it in rust). still, as long as rust wasn't avaiable, the problem was considered "too hard" for the team that wrote firefox. in my opinion that's a solid argument for "programming problem that was too hard".

but as simon said, i too consider coming up with "the algorithms, the strategy" as part of programming. saying "it's easy to do if you know exactly how to do it" is somewhat tautological.

[Loic]

I am spending about 10h per day solving chemical engineering problems (dynamic simulation, model predictive control, etc.). The programming is hard on top of hard science. Even after 25 years of experience, it is still hard to find the right abstraction to implement everything.

Still, one thing I really like with LLM/AI, is that now, I can allow myself to test different abstractions a bit faster. I can allow myself to "try" more complex refactoring on a feature branch, because if I describe correctly the abstraction I want, the LLM/AI tool will be normally good at producing it. But to describe my abstraction, I need to pull all my programming and engineering years of experience.

But at the end of the day, I always tell my wife, that with these new tools, which I could not imagine so powerful 3 years ago, I live in the future :-)

[llmssuck]

I suppose the complexity of the domain is the main driver of the difficulty level. Perhaps that's the intuition that I'm trying to pin down: programming itself, the typing of words for the compiler, the act of converting pure thought into code, seems mechanical at best. But if you include the act of abstraction itself, then I concede it changes the equation. I don't find it to be all that clear what is and isn't programming to be honest.

Especially once you get to describe your abstractions in plain (or slightly technical) English instead of code I find it hard to say "programming" is being performed, but in many ways the case could be made that it remained the same and only the shape of the artifacts is different now.

[wmwragg]

Yep, I think people who repeat this aphorism essentially equate programming with typing, or as you say just connecting existing bits together. Programming is the working out how to get a computer to perform some task, not just the typing, it's the algorithms, the performance balancing, the structuring, the integration etc.

[pydry]

Or theyre just picturing some CRUD app that needs to connect to a few APIs being made for a clueless exec who doesnt even understand their own business problem.

To be fair, a lot of programming does end up being just that.

[yibg]

Probably difference in the boundary of what programming entails too. Eg is coming up with the algo itself part of programming or only the writing the implementation part after the algo is clear.

The first is hard, the second much less so.

[Anamon]

I think that's fine and probably kind of their point, no? Because that other part before the typing is also the thing that LLMs are woefully shit at, unless it's a common and solved problem with 1000 published examples.

[johnnyanmac]

>Some times the programming part really is very hard even when it’s easy to know what needs to be built

Sometimes. Most programming jobs out there just need a button on a website or a 2 line fix for some off-by-1 error, though. Those who are working on novel, cutting edge problems are relatively rare.

As you said, most software enginering is connecting existing frameworks together and being in meetings on how/when best to do it. Not necessarily a bad thing at all, but that's why the metaphor of the mechanic or doctor works out here, where the labor to know where and how to fix something is worth much more than the actual part (or medicine's) cost.

[ravenstine]

Imagine telling workers at a construction company that the hard problem was never building stuff but figuring out what needs to be built.

The saying also ignores the fact that humans are not perfect programmers, and they all vary in skills and motives. Being a programmer often not about simply writing new code but modifying existing code, and that can be incredibly challenging when that code is hairbrained or overly clever and the people who wrote it are long gone. That involves programming and it's really hard.

[Yokohiii]

Isn't overly clever code a result of programmers doing simple things the hard mode?

Okay it's a spicy take, because juniors also tend to write too smart code.

Figuring out what to do and how to do it, is maybe not hard but it's effort. It's a hidden thing because it's not flat coding time, it requires planning, research, exploration and cooperation.

It's also true that some seemingly simple things are very hard. There are probably countless workarounds out there and the programmer wasn't even aware he is dodging an NP hard bullet.

Both arguments are valid.

I think the weight leans on effort, because effort is harder to avoid. Work, complexity, cruft piles up, no matter what you do. But you can work around hard problems. Not always but often enough. Not every business is NASA and has to do everything right, a 90% solution still generates 90% returns, and no one dies.

[anyonecancode]

> Imagine telling workers at a construction company that the hard problem was never building stuff but figuring out what needs to be built.

Isn't this kind of true, though? Housing construction, for instance, isn't bottlenecked by the technical difficulties of building, but by political and regulatory hurdles. Or look at large, capital-intensive projects such as the always-proposed, never built new Hudson river train tubes. Actually building these will take billions of dollars and many years, but even they would be long built by now were it not for their constantly being blocked by political jockeying.

Building stuff _does_ often involve difficult technical challenges, but I still think that as a general aphorism the observation that this isn't the _hardest_ part holds true.

[llmssuck]

We might have different concepts of "hard", but if I were a construction worker I think I would agree. Hell, I'm a developer and I agree. Figuring out what to do definitely is the hard part. The rest is work and can be sweaty, but it's not hard as if it's full of impenetrable math or requiring undiscovered physics. It's just time-consuming and in the case of construction work physically tiring.

It might be that I have been doing this for too long and no longer see it.

[johnnyanmac]

I imagine the hard part isn't the literal building of the stuff. It's the months or years of politics, beauracracy, and bids needed to get to a point where you can build it.

That's not to discount the intensity of the labor. Just that the labor is rarely the bottleneck in building stuff.

[ravenstine]

I see what you're saying, and our labor isn't the bottleneck from the perspective of engineers. However, I'm pretty sure that business leadership would beg to differ. They see engineering as a necessary evil to getting their products out the window, and it can never be done fast enough. The solution is the bottleneck in their eyes. Engineers have a better understanding of why they do what they do, hence they get that their work isn't inherently a bottleneck in spite of how challenging it can be.

But yes, in reality, you're correct that programming itself is not (or should not) be a bottleneck, but the process around developing a product definitely can be. The irony here is that this bottleneck usually gets worse the more corporate a business becomes and the more they try to treat programming as if it were a bottleneck. Not a day goes by that my job isn't made more difficult because the business wants greater agility and efficiency.