[echelon]

Are you an entrepreneur or an employee?

Do you know how exceedingly hard it is to grow a business and how shameless you have to be in the face of adversity to make it work?

It sucks. You have to do this stuff to get a customer relationship. The thing Apple and Google get for free and try so hard to snip you out of.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we regulated market monopolies and caused them to break up. More money to go around.

Font Awesome is a good business, but you know the gettings are tough when they have to do this.

A lot of y'all complain about this, then act surprised when businesses have to lay off or go under. We can't all be advertising behemoths like Google.

Google, which by the way, used monopoly power to take 92% of "URL bars" and turn them into proxy bidding wars for brands and trademarks they do not own. Totally illegal horse shit that passes costs onto consumers and makes it easier for big business to squash small brands (I've had big business spend ads on my tiny little trademark).

You're all angry at the wrong people.

[Barrin92]

>Do you know how exceedingly hard it is to grow a business

how is this my problem? Do you think wanting to be one of the cool entrepreneurs is a right or something? I don't care if the in your words shameless hustle goes under because you're spamming my mail with your fifteenth startup idea, that's my attention you're wasting, go get a real job.

I'll take trustworthy big business over shameless small business, I hope Google filters more of the stuff. I'm always astonished by people who try to justify their sketchy business practices with their underdog status. Those are by the way the exact same people who, once they succeed, do what they accuse Google of

[itopaloglu83]

I understand the sentiment and know how hard it is to advance in business especially within all the noise.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that I don’t want to be spammed and will even use the nuclear option and delete my account completely if spamming continues.

Your customers are not your minions, some would accept such communication and some would refuse. Tricking users into receiving emails will not work in the long term if your products suck.

[RHSeeger]

But that same exact logic applies to "it's really hard to succeed, so I'm going to just mug some people to get the money I need". I'm sorry, but "its hard to succeed, so I'm justified in being unethical" is _not_ a valid excuse.

[deaux]

I am an entrepeneur, not an employee. Never took VC money, boostrapped from very little. They're right though. Yes, Apple and Google need to be broken up. No, you absolutely don't need to be shameless and send spam emails to make it work. You don't need to spend money on Google Ads either.

[EA-3167]

Who’s angry? We’re just not interested in someone else’s unethical and unwelcome business practices and are acting to curtail its impact.

Your dreams of business success aren’t my problem, and neither is your shamelessness.

[echelon]

Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

That's a bit carried away, don't you think?

There are unsubscribe buttons with laws that enforce that they work.

Meanwhile hyperscalers are constantly in your eyes and ears and they have a million ways to bypass those regulations and get into your headspace regardless.

Your URL bar is an ad. Your phone default settings and push notifications are ads. Your app store is an ad. Every new feature or OS update is an ad. Your new tab screen is an ad. Your browser updates are ads.

Dollars are spent on attention. You don't make it in this world without securing some attention.

Some have worked themselves into a place of eternal captive attention, everyone else is either climbing the mountain or running the treadmill.

And all those employees' livelihoods depend on it working. Otherwise they starve.

Be thankful you, as presumably an engineer, don't have to be exposed to this game. It's Darwinian and adversarial, zero sum, a fight to survive.

Maybe you're happy working for someone who does all this work for you or figured out a tiny niche where it isn't necessary. But reality is much different.

[Arainach]

> Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

I purchase a product from company X. They require an email and will not let me buy without it. I actually do want an email confirmation that the order went through and even that my product shipped.

I do not want emails about "we released a new thing" or "we have a sale" or "it's Tuesday and we want you to remember we exist". Signing me up without an explicit opt-in using information you required me to provide is absolutely unethical.

"X is even worse" does not make Y ethical, good, or acceptable. What your least favorite corporations do isn't relevant.

Other people are inconsiderate monsters who litter in national parks and abandon mattresses on the side of the road. BP and Exxon did more damage to the environment than I ever could. It's still unethical if I drop my garbage on the ground.

[hrimfaxi]

> Dollars are spent on attention. You don't make it in this world without securing some attention.

I love your word choice here. "Securing" almost perfectly defines it, because you are acting with hostility against the person whose attention you are seeking to capture.

[nathanaldensr]

Exactly. Like most "growth hackers," they assume that our attention is their resource to consume, and we should all be grateful for the privilege of making them rich.

No thanks. I reject this as the abusive practice and mentality that it is.

[EA-3167]

> Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

The premise is that people are specifically opting OUT of those emails. Feel free to keep "hustling", feel free to treat people as resources to exploit, just don't be shocked and upset when those resources treat you like a parasite to be removed from their lives without concern for your financial wellbeing.

[wasabi991011]

> Your URL bar is an ad. Your phone default settings and push notifications are ads. Your app store is an ad. Every new feature or OS update is an ad. Your new tab screen is an ad. Your browser updates are ads.

How do you define ads? Those are not ads in my book. An update is not an ad, I can't think of any valid interpretation of that other than "existence is an ad because people who interact with it might want to do do again" but at that point the word "ad" has lost all useful meaning.

[Arainach]

> An update is not an ad

To be fair, I think echelon was calling out that there are absolutely ads in browser updates now. "Try Firefox VPN!" "Look what's new in Chrome!", etc.

[2000UltraDeluxe]

> Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

In some countries it's not just "unethical", but outright illegal. Laws and rules vary, but all is equal to the spam button and the whims of those wielding it.

[duskdozer]

>Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

I never consent to advertising. If I receive an advertisement, that means it was forced on me. Which I consider unethical.

[RHSeeger]

> There are unsubscribe buttons with laws that enforce that they work.

They don't. Period. Full Stop. There are tons of companies that I have told to stop sending me emails that just... continue to do so. And some that won't _allow_ me to tell them to stop (I need to create an account to tell them not to email me... but they shouldn't be emailing me if I don't have an account).

So no, they don't work.

[47282847]

> Sending you an email after you signed up is "unethical"?

Unless I asked for it, it is both unethical and will turn me as potential customer away, and it is illegal (GDPR).

[FireBeyond]

> Do you know how exceedingly hard it is to grow a business

This reminds me of a local bricks and mortar small business that closed down and the wife posted a completely tone deaf:

"It is a horrible shame that our long sought out dream had to die because the local "community" was not willing to support it."

I missed the part where "community" meant we are obligated to expend our own resources for your profit.

Doubly galling was the fact that there was generally "his n hers" G Wagons parked out front of their business. Doing better than 95% of the community and still pissed that the community wasn't giving them more.

[echelon]

Small business is brutal, isn't it?

You're fighting small biz and accept the world big tech has created to extort all of us.

You'd yell at that local brick and mortar for sending you a half off coupon in your email because it's spam, but my guess is you're fine with perpetual smartphone upgrades and not owning the entire vertical taxation and lock-in stack.

We're allowing ourselves to become serfs of big business that would no sooner outsource or lay us off.

The puzzling moral superiority is what really gets me.

Just don't complain when your tech company lays you off or your job has been automated out of existence. You might have to learn what hustle and sales really are.

[FireBeyond]

I have no problem with small business, but it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder and completely failed to miss the point. But, in case it wasn't clear - a husband and wife couple, who already appear to be more successful than the vast majority of the community they're in, actually going so far as to get pissed off at the community for not making them even richer. "The "community" (bonus points for the snarky air quotes) was UNWILLING to support OUR dream" they posted, from the front seat of their $200,000 SUVs.

Now, explain to me why I am somehow obligated to support their business?

[em-bee]

so the only way to grow a business is to sell to people who tolerate spam and avoid those who don't?

[echelon]

They complain a lot less.

This is why B2B is easier than B2C.

A consumer will pay $10/mo and ask for the moon. Threaten to leave. Get angry at an email.

A business will drop $10k no questions asked and your product can be garbage. As long as it solves or attempts to solve a pain point. Emails won't be seen as spam. Except by ICs/eng, perhaps.

[TeMPOraL]

> A consumer will pay $10/mo and

> ask for the moon. Threaten to leave.

That's normal business thing. What significantly helps reducing this, though, is the business is not promising the stars and engaging in all kinds of dark patterns with deals, cancellation friction, etc.

> Get angry at an email.

Particularly e-mail they did not ask for, and is not directly related to the thing they're paying $10/mo for.

[GroksBarnacles]

No company has ever gained users by forcing emails on users.

[echelon]

Every fashion brand on the planet reengages their customers this way and it works.

I learned about the Analogue 64 from a marketing email, and I bought it.

I see emails showing me new API features are available. Sometimes that's useful.

I see Font Awesome has new fonts. Useful.

I see a16z wrote an article that seems interesting to me. Useful.

I filter out the 95% of stuff I don't want. I'm not seeing ads for clothing, but my wife might and she might find that useful.

You're thinking that because you don't like it the practice should end entirely across the board?

You very rarely make it in this world without trying.

And if you don't like it, there's "unsubscribe".

Not everyone is lucky enough to be Apple. And even they send lots of marketing emails.

Engineers complain too much. The reality on the ground is much more steep and treacherous.

[Mordisquitos]

> Every fashion brand on the planet reengages their customers this way and it works.

I often receive emails from (among other things) fashion brands to which I never subscribed. There are clearly multiple people worldwide who, mistakenly or intentionally, are giving my `[e-mail]` at checkout or whatever rather than their own.

Every time I receive one of those emails I do two things:

1. Use their unsubscribe link on a private window, connecting with a VPN exit point in their country (or nearby). If asked, I select the "I never subscribed" or "This is spam" option.

2. Mark the email as spam on GMail, rejecting GMail's proposal to unsubscribe instead (as I already did).

I have no mercy and feel no guilt at reducing their email server's reputation. The only exceptions I make are the rare emails that ask me to confirm "my" subscription before sending "me" their stuff. That I respect, and I just ignore and delete.

[GroksBarnacles]

Reengaging customers is not gaining customers. I haven't been an engineer all my life, but I've been "on the ground" that entire time and I sure have gained a lot of disdain for a lot of companies because they won't stop emailing me.

[gpvos]

If a company sends me mail and I don't remember allowing them to, I will not trust them and will not use the unsubscribe button, because using it signals to the sender that my address is valid. I will mark as spam.

The onus for clearly communicating that you are going to mail me anything other than transaction updates is with the sender, not the receiver.

[AlexandrB]

A lot of y'all treat customers like shit - spam them, engage in dark patterns, constantly try to upsell, ask them to fill out surveys before they've completed a single purchase - then act surprised when businesses have to lay off or go under.

[M2Ys4U]

>You're all angry at the wrong people.

No. We're not. Perhaps we should be angry at both, but we definitely should be angry at you.

Spam is bad. If your business can't survive without sending spam, your business shouldn't survive.

[tsukikage]

Get this through your head: I. do. not. want. to. be. in. a. relationship. with. you. Using your product or service one time is not consent. Finding partners is hard, but that is no reason to propose marriage on the first date, and that strategy will not work well. No means no.

[nathanaldensr]

You're asking for others to take abuse on your behalf because your needs are more important than theirs. You're abusive. Stop coping and admit the truth. You're part of the problem but wrapping it in victimhood.