[kylec]

This is a very silly restriction, at least to apply uniformly to all Macs. I think if you buy a more powerful Mac they should let you virtualize more Mac instances. Like an M5 maybe limit to 2, but maybe let an M5 Pro do 4 and an M5 Max do 8 or something.

[benoau]

Why should they impose a limit at all? Your hardware is a natural limit, you'll stop of your own accord when you reach its thresholds.

[lxgr]

Because this limit isn’t about your hardware, but their software.

As appropriate a model this still is in the development VM scenario, you still need a valid license for each operating system copy you run.

Microsoft will sell you these individually; Apple apparently implicitly grants you up to three per Mac that you buy, and won’t let you pay for any more even if you want to.

In other words, what’s limited here is not really the hypervisor itself, but rather the “license granting component” that passes through the implicit permission to run macOS, but only up to some limit.

[matheusmoreira]

Rent seeking, of course. They want to charge you for every physical and logical machine you use. Virtualization gets around that.

They'd probably charge separately for every feature of the processor if they could.

[JoshTriplett]

That would make more sense except they don't even have an option to pay for it.

[jonnrb]

Yes they do. It's called "another Mac". And I'm not even being snarky here: I legitimately think someone at Apple thought this through and said "yeah if they need more than 2 VMs running at the same time, there are probably multiple users and they can each get their own Mac".

[stingraycharles]

Nah, Apple has been extremely restrictive about virtual machines in all kinds of ways, e.g. the minimum terms anyone is able to lease out a VM or Mac to someone else is 24h, making cloud-like workloads practically impossible. For some reason, Apple really doesn’t like virtual machines, and it’s much more intentional than just “probably multiple users”.

It’s extremely frustrating.

[monocasa]

I mean, as someone who was in that situation as a customer, we couldn't find a great cloud option for our needs, and we ended up building our first hardware lab with a bunch of macs.

It definitely caused us to buy macs we would have rented and shared.

[leptons]

Frustrating for you, hilarious for me. I had no idea they had hobbled MacOS in this way. It doesn't surprise me at all really, and it's pretty ridiculous.

I'm not sure why people keep giving Apple their money, especially tech-savvy people that would want to run VMs.

[Melatonic]

If they licensed or built their own microVMs they could offer it as an addon product and solve most of these issues without full macOS instances

[VanTheBrand]

The option is you have to buy another machine. There are mac ec2 instances and several mac cloud hosts that all would abuse this if they could, instead to stay compliant they buy more machines.

[leptons]

I tried to launch a MacOS instance on EC2 recently (on my work account), and was blocked.

So I asked the IT dept and they said it's stupidly expensive to run a MacOS instance on EC2, and that they would just send me a Macbook Pro instead.

I wish I were kidding.

[thealistra]

You should be happy that you have such a financially aware IT dept. The machines are truly expensive and after managing a farm of 150 Mac minis at work I can tell why.

It is like 3 days running the EC2 buys you a Mac mini? And you can only rent the machine in day increments

[benoau]

(where "abuse" means using the hardware to run software)

[wqaatwt]

Well yeah and Apple wouldn’t be able to abuse its pseudo-monopolistic market position. That would be so sad…

[JoshTriplett]

And thus they need a massive datacenter full of systems, rather than a pile of paid licenses.

And macOS remains a toy for use only by individuals that is a massive pain for developers to support.

[naikrovek]

They are likely scared of people who would run MacOS virtual desktop farms, without also buying an appropriate number of Apple machines.

That’s what I would be worried about if my primary source of income was hardware sales.

[ryandrake]

Apple had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of virtualization and the idea of macOS running on anything besides "metal built by Apple." They've been pretty clear for decades that they only care about customers who buy Apple aluminum and silicon.

[woodson]

Well, but their customers are those that buy Apple hardware.

[mysteria]

IMO they should sell appropriately priced licenses that allow the use of more VMs. Make the licenses expensive enough so that it doesn't eat into hardware sales, or explicitly prohibit VDI/virtual seats in the license agreement.

Currently services like Github Actions painfully and inefficiently rack thousands of Mac Minis and run 2 VMs on each to stay within the limits. They probably wouldn't mind paying a fee to run more VMs on Mac Studios instead.

[moondev]

Imagine buying a mac studio with 500+ GB of memory and being limited to 2 vms.

[naikrovek]

Yeah that is what I was going to do until I discovered the two VM limit. I was building a MacOS GitHub Actions farm, or rather, looking into it. I had written most of the code but my inertia screeched to a halt when I discovered the two VM limit for MacOS VMs.

[leptons]

You are not Apple's target market, and never will be.

They don't care what you want to do with the hardware you own.

[naikrovek]

No kidding.

[stephenr]

You realise you can run VMs for any other os right? It's a limit on running macOS not a limit on running VMs.

[naikrovek]

Yes we all realize that.

It’s MacOS VMs that we want to run.

[stephenr]

Maybe I should have used the same dismissive tone.

Imagine thinking everyone who buys a Mac and runs VMs wants to run heaps of macOS VMs.

[FireBeyond]

They discontinued the 512GB Studio, and the Pro is gone, so no fear there now.

[naikrovek]

They still EXIST though. And I saw one the other day on the Refurbished store. They’re definitely still around.

Even a 256GB model would run a load of 16GB VMs

[colechristensen]

Market design.

They don't want to be in the server business, they don't want there to be third party VM providers running Mac farms selling oversubscribed giving underpowered disappointing VM experiences to users who will complain.

A bunch of folks want Apple to enter a market Apple doesn't want to enter into. They have tools available which would enable that market which they are kneecapping on purpose so that nobody unwillingly enters them into it. The "two VMs per unit hardware" has been in their license for at least a decade.

[leptons]

>The "two VMs per unit hardware" has been in their license for at least a decade.

I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a workaround or hack for this.

Microsoft has had limits on some things like RDP on some versions of Windows, but there have always been ways to get around it.

[marmarama]

Sure you can do it technically, but then you have a licensing compliance issue, so no reputable business will do it.

You can run x86 macOS VMs in Windows or Linux too with a little bit of technical trickery, but again, you end up with a license issue, so no-one reputable does it.

[leptons]

I've never really understood how Apple can let people download MacOS for free, and then tell them where and how they can run it - only on Apple's hardware. If I download a copy of Windows or any software ever written, I can run it on any hardware that exists that can run it. But somehow Apple gets to dictate to people where and how they can run freely available software that anyone can download?

[colechristensen]

You struggle with the concept of licenses?

[saagarjha]

You are commenting on the article that discusses exactly that.

[isodev]

> Your hardware

Ah but when you buy an iPhone or a Mac, Apple sees it as their hardware graciously made available to you for a limited time and under ToS.

[m463]

> Why should they impose a limit at all?

Whenever I see apple silliness, I have to remember:

  "You're not the target market."

[jdejean]

Yeah but. They happily sold it to you

[bestham]

They sold it to you, with a limit.

[egorfine]

> Your hardware

They see it a bit differently.

[fsckboy]

>Why should they impose a limit at all? Your hardware is a natural limit

because imposing an artificial limit keeps them from exposing how low the natural limits turn out to be? Apple Silicon need always to be spoken with reverence, ye brother of the faith, do not fuel the faithless lest they rend and threadrip that which we've made of wholecloth.

[bdcravens]

The limit isn't really a resource issue, since you can run pretty much an "unlimited" number of non-Mac VMs. I suspect it's more of a business decision, such as preventing people from setting up shop as a low-cost Mac VPS provider.

[fortran77]

Maybe it doesn't work. Why are you so sure it would? It may perform very badly.

[leptons]

But aren't Mx based macs supposed to be the fastest computers you can get? Why wouldn't they be able to run more than 2 VMs?

I can run a ton of Windows VMs at the same time, wouldn't Windows be a comparable resource hog to MacOS?

Apple M2 CPUs can have up to 192GB of RAM. If we look at the Mac Neo that has only 8GB of RAM, then an M2 host should be able to run at least 20 VMs before memory gets scarce.

There's no good reason Apple limits to 2 VMs except for greed, which they are well known for.

[bdcravens]

I've run multiple Windows VMs as well as multiple Docker sessions at the same time on different MBPs (my current one being an M3 Max). Didn't really budge the machine at all.

[fortran77]

I buy a $100 Windows 11 Pro licence, and my limit is 1024 VMs

Hyper‑V on Windows 11 supports up to 1024 simultaneous VMs per host if the hardware can handle it. On my little Windows ARM laptop I can easily run 4 VMs before it runs out of steam.

[oxfeed65261]

On Mac, you can run lots of Windows/Linux VMs and two Mac VMs.

On Windows, you can run lots of Windows/Linux VMs and zero Mac VMs.

[leptons]

I've run MacOS x86 VMs on Windows, it used to work great for a while. I haven't done that lately. I just don't care that much about supporting Apple users anymore, Apple makes it too expensive and difficult.

[ChoGGi]

> zero Mac VMs.

Legally (the last time I checked)

[kylec]

The limit of 2 is just for virtualizing macOS. You can run as many Linux VMs as you want at once on macOS.

[fortran77]

There's first class support for Linux on Windows, and Microsoft has a developers VM available for download so you can run as many Windows as you want. I do a Hyper-V Quick Create and there are three flavors of Linux to choose from, or Windows, with all the development tools pre-installed.

[colechristensen]

The only reason Linux exists on Windows is they're trying to redo the 90s playbook of dominating then destroying the competition. I was almost on board in the Windows 10 era, switching a whole lot of my time to doing things in WSL on Windows.

Windows 11 and the walled garden greed they're trying to enable is so bad that this dominating Linux attempt is certainly failing, the only reason I haven't completely ditched my Windows system is that my several TB external drive is at large and I haven't taken the time to actually do it.

Plus Steam and their Wine work is absolutely killing it so the one thing that was keeping me motivated to still have a Windows presence is pretty much gone.

[lxgr]

But you can’t run 1024 copies of that one license. This is what this limit is actually about.

[tomaskafka]

Remember you’re not battling against a HW limitation, but against Tim Cook’s fear of selling less macs.

[namelosw]

It really is silly. The other day I decided to try this openclaw thing out but concerned about the security stuff, so I took VM for a spin only to find out the iCloud and the App Store were restricted.