[diogenes_atx]

It seems like this article buried the best lede of the story on paragraph ten, which explains Flock's new business of surveillance drones launched in response to 911 calls (and also presumably triggered by other alerts configured by police and private businesses).

> Flock has recently expanded into other technologies... Most concerning are the latest Flock drones equipped with high-powered cameras. Flock's "Drone as First Responder" platform automates drone operations, including launching them in response to 911 calls or gunfire. Flock's drones, which reach speeds up to 60 mph, can follow vehicles or people and provide information to law enforcement.

[jonas21]

This is much less concerning to me than mass surveillance. If someone calls 911 and you need to send a first responder, why not send a drone to get there faster while a person is on their way?

[rudhdb773b]

Because today it will be used as a first responder.

Tomorrow a police officer will suggest that these drones (that we are already using successfully) could be very useful for checking up on that "dangerous" neighborhood.

[JuniperMesos]

In the city I live in, there is a chronic shortage of police officers and a lot of dangerous neighborhoods. If a drone could be used to do the same or a substantially-similar policing job in those neighborhoods that a human cop would, without having to pay for a human cop (not just their salary in and of itself, but also in terms of making the police department a place people are willing to work for at that salary), this would be an improvement to public safety and quality of life.

Also remote-operated drones don't need to fear that they will get suddenly shot or stabbed to death by a criminal suspect whose potential crimes they are investigating, like a human cop does; and this would itself have some beneficial effects on policing.

[grigri907]

The "same or substantially-similar policing job" is the key to this argument. Which it can't. A drone can't de-escalate a tense conflict between neighbors, it can't provide traffic redirection after an accident, or even rescue a kitten from a tree.

It can't be a calm, reassuring presence, offer a kind smile, or give directions. It only disconnects the police force from the policed community. Its presence will only raise tensions and paranoia. And that's with unarmed drones!

[citruscomputing]

Hi, I'm in Denver. They're already doing this over on Colfax. It's a significant change vs the existing halo cameras, because they use the drones to follow people.

[cucumber3732842]

I'm not really worried about the police. There's mountains of well reinforced legal precedent restricting them. Sure they have violence, but they kind of need to show up to do that. All the other stuff they do runs up against your rights which are really well established. Even the "civil" traffic stuff is pretty hard fought, comparatively.

Every other civil enforcer can basically fine you on a whim and then your appeal goes into a system that makes jim crow look impartial. So yeah, I'm not worried about the cops. I'm worried about the zoning office "fixing" a budget shortfall by fining people for unpermitted kiddie pools or whatever and in the 10yr it takes to get smacked down in court they'll have stolen the property of a ton of people. I'm dead serious. However bad you think it could be reality is worse. These non-LEO departments make the most sloppy podunk sheriff's office look like the FBI.

[JuniperMesos]

The actual problem is that there's a law requiring a permit for kiddie pools with a fine attached, that was mostly unenforced previously, so a lot of people got into the habit of breaking it.

[NoSalt]

Hello, James Cameron and his Dark Angel series:

https://www.google.com/search?q=dark+angel+hoverdrone

[sheiyei]

As a concept, first responder drones are a good idea. But I wouldn't want public services having anything to do with that company.

[pesus]

If the drones are "providing information" to the police, it's only a matter of time before their AI hallucinates something that gets someone killed. We've already seen AI gun detection services that report things like Doritos bags as guns.

[grimcompanion]

OTOH it will provide more surveillance of the police themselves. Humans are also bad at gun detection (sometimes willfully so) and this provides another check.

[FireBeyond]

Watch for Flock footage to be "unavailable"/"deleted"/"corrupt" just as often as bodycam footage is.

[IAmBroom]

Not as often; it creates friction and requires cooperation from others (or an officer with unusual skill and access, presumably).

It will absolutely happen in corrupt departments, or those involving an officer with those skills and access. But data that is uploaded is infinitely harder to erase than simply turning off the camera in the first place.

[gretch]

That's right. And also just like the missing epstein footage.

Because it's a social problem, not a technology problem.

At the same time, just because these instances of "missing" tape happen, does not mean that body cams and jailhouse CCTV are useless. We would not take those away. Likewise for the future drone footage

[islandfox100]

The categorization of the problem isn't an excuse to propogate and intensify the problem. The tech should not be used until the problem is resolved.

[chaps]

How exactly does this provide more surveillance of the police themselves? I've done about ten FOIA lawsuits against police departments and it's laughable to think that they won't just lock footage away and exempt it from the public's eyes. Probably through a trade secret exemption because private companies are involved.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

And then what? Hover over me as I'm dying?

[tux1968]

Yes. If you called from your cell phone while on foot or in your car, the drone can find your exact location and hover over you until help arrives, quicker than if EMS has to search you out themselves.

[FireBeyond]

How so? I ask as a paramedic of 14 years, now retired.

If EMS has to "search you out" so does the drone.

At least in my County, we actually get very good triangulation info from 911. It was very rare that Dispatch told us they only had Level 2(IIRC) location info (which might be to several hundred feet).

FAR more common was people who actually told us the -wrong- location. Car accidents that were several miles up the road from their location. Saying Blah St SE when they meant Blah Rd NE, etc.

Drones don't solve for that problem. They're going to the wrong location, too.

[tux1968]

> If EMS has to "search you out" so does the drone.

The point is that the drone is fast enough to arrive first, and do the searching so that you don't have to. It's just one of many possible scenarios.

I totally understand the argument that this might not be the most effective use of money, but I honestly don't understand the lack of appreciation for the number of places this could be used effectively.

[FireBeyond]

Modern fire departments (including my own) are already using drones, and have found that the best use for them is not "how quickly can we find someone", but thermal imaging from above on structure fires.

> and do the searching so that you don't have to

The searching that we did just isn't really solved by drones (and I love them, some of my best photography is from a drone). It's things like "obscured house numbers on a street", "ambiguous address", not "person lost in a forest". Now if you want to talk about the use of drones for SAR? Absolutely. But for the vast majority of 911 "attempt to locate", getting there quickly is rarely the issue. We can get there quickly and still spend minutes figuring out that you're actually living on a flag property (where your home is behind another, but you share a driveway).

[markdown]

I want to see who is in a location. I get a plant to call 911, which triggers Flock drones in the general area and scans the faces of everyone it can find. I get that info from Flock.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

Ok. I live in a small, flat city with few trees. So why did my police department buy these?

[tux1968]

Obviously I don't know the specifics of your city, but in general there are a lot of scenarios where it's valuable to get to a scene very quickly (no traffic, etc.) and obtain reconnaissance. Especially violent scenes, or it could even be a drunk driver who is still on the move, or a stolen car where the perpetrators are likely to flee on foot if stopped.

I'm sure you can come up with a lot more ideas using your imagination.

[tadfisher]

Thanks for the explanation. I will ask my local city council to spend the money elsewhere.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

Sounds like a scam

[thebigman433]

One of the best reasons is that a very large % of calls can be cleared without anyone actually going to the scene. Many cities using drones as first responders now report that they clear ~30% of calls with just a drone. This is great for small cities/towns that struggle to recruit officers and have had ballooning labor costs for police in order to get people to work there. Its also great philosophically if you want police to be involved less, because it dramatically lowers the amount of time they are going to scenes

[scottyah]

Can they drive straight to you at 60mph without stopping?

[chaps]

Got it, a surveillance missile.

[jeffbee]

Yeah this doesn't bother me in any way, shape, or form. We already have manned aircraft that respond to such things, unmanned aircraft are a strictly better solution. It makes sense for police and it makes even more sense for fire. An aircraft can arrive at the site of a reported fire while firemen are still buckling their pants.

[dmbche]

You get manned aircraft to come and check in before the police when you call 911?

[dghlsakjg]

In high school in the mid 2000s in Denver, they had a chopper in the air on weekend nights from 8 until 2:30 am or so.

When our parties got called in, the spotlight would be the warning that the cops were a few minutes away and it was time to run.

Lots of cities have manned aircraft loitering during busy times that will respond to a call before ground units

[jeffbee]

Yes, often the first response to some calls is a CHP aircraft that continuously loiters in the area.

[platevoltage]

There is an endless list of infractions to civil liberties that would "Make sense for police".

[wiether]

At least their current cameras are fixed to a single point.

With their drones they now have cameras roaming freely everywhere.

[dmbche]

What's the drone gonna do?

[ThaDood]

Likely: Scan everyone's home while en-route to the 911 call with an infrared camera. Or scan all of the license plates and faces of people along the way.

Possible: Perhaps crash into someone? Or worse.

[HWR_14]

> Scan everyone's home while en-route to the 911 call with an infrared camera.

That's unconstitutional. Use a regular camera and it's fine for some reason.

[Breza]

US law is more murky if they are responding to a perceived emergency. That can give probable cause. Imagine someone calls 911 due to smoke coming out of the neighbor's house. Clearly the drone can legally use IR to look for fire in the house. But it gets complicated fast, which is what worries me. Now imagine a car backfires, a microphone array reports it as a gunshot, and a drone shows up and starts scanning the nearest apartment building.

[shostack]

Facial recognition scan for ICE

[chaps]

I'm sorry but, in what way is a swarm of surveillance drones NOT a mass surveillance system?

[jm4]

That’s actually really cool and I don’t feel like it’s invasive. It’s surveillance in a specific location for a specific purpose and in response to certain emergencies. Active shooter is probably the first thing that comes to mind, but accidents, fires, unexpected disasters, etc. could all be situations where this technology helps assess the situation and inform response.

[_DeadFred_]

"CITIZEN there has been a report of a shooting in the area, please remain motionless as we scan your face for biometrics.

Scan complete. Please do not move or attempt to leave the area until you have been notified via the 'GovernmentForYou' app that you are cleared to leave the area.

Because you have been identified in the active area police have been granted legal probable cause to search your home. Please unlock your homes doors via any smart home app you have to prevent the authorities from forcibly removing your door onsite

Notification. Citizen because of your scan you have been identified as committing a bank fraud case in North Dakota and will be detained and transported (the move process takes 2-4 weeks). Once in North Dakota your right to a speedy trial will start if you are held more than the reasonable 60 day administration period.

Have a good day citizen and thank you for your cooperation."

[JuniperMesos]

What would actual human cops do if there was a report of a shooting in an area, and they were investigating it?

[mullingitover]

In Southern California we have eye-wateringly expensive (and loud) police aircraft flying 24x7.

I’m not a fan of Flock but I would welcome anything that knocks out some of the ghetto birds’ budget.

[roughly]

They do more than that - our local PD gave a presentation on what Flock’s pitching - ALPRs, fixed pan/tilt cameras, “citizen cameras,” drones, and a whole “sensor fusion” software suite that lets you stitch in everything along with data from surrounding precincts which also have Flock (think Palantir for local cops). We were pretty shocked at the scale.

[SoftTalker]

Hunter-Killers not far behind.

[mystraline]

Nor is the Butlerian Jihad.

[goatlover]

Just need a giant worm god to put us on the right path.

[mystraline]

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." - Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, Dune

[ramraj07]

I can anticipate this starting to happen: shoot into the sky, wait for flock drone to start coming in, then shoot it! Free target practice!

[Forgeties79]

Code 8-style cop drone drops incoming

[iwontberude]

Thank you for finding this nugget, I really only read HN comments and rarely the source material. You all have been my LLM summary for a decade at least.