[strict9]

This is an interesting and more apt way to frame smart features.

One way I've found to avoid objects that come alive is to buy the commercial version.

- TVs aimed at commercial hospitality businesses let you avoid a lot of the bloatware and smart features that come bundled with it

- Commercial washer/dryers let you avoid bluetooth and wifi and other junk not needed to wash your clothes. These are available without the coin operated features

Commercial versions of consumer products are usually simpler, more durable, and don't have advertising and smart features.

[ggreer]

It can also make sense to buy old/used versions of consumer products. For example: My parents have a washer & dryer from the mid 90s. They occasionally get a new belt, but besides that there's not much that can go wrong with them.

If you're looking at buying used stuff, it's important to research common failures for that specific product and what can be done to fix them. As long as it's popular enough that parts still exist, you should be good to go. You do pay a cost in terms of time, so it's important to pick your battles.

The most annoying thing to me is government-mandated smart devices. For example: In Washington state, all new water heaters must have a feature that causes them to reduce the water temperature if the grid is experiencing high demand.[1] There are no exemptions for off-grid installations. Everyone ends up with a more expensive, less reliable water heater. In my case I found a contractor who was willing to install a dumb water heater, but not everyone is as savvy. The state also mandates that new thermostats be programmable (no more simple bimetal thermostats), which is another electronic part that can fail.[2] Ideally governments would create incentives to encourage more efficient energy usage (such taxes & subsidies), but not require or ban specific solutions.

1. https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=51-11C-40414

2. https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=51-11R-40310

[compounding_it]

Newer stuff is more efficient. For example washers and dryers have a direct drive technology with gears that help it use less power and maybe even less water.

[anamax]

The energy saved by a new washer or dryer vs an older one is dwarfed by the energy needed to make the new washer or dryer.

FWIW, the same applies to most building replacements. Yes, the newer buildings use less energy, but the savings doesn't pay for the cost of replacing an old one.

[LUmBULtERA]

This really depends on what you're replacing. Replacing a standard electric water heater that uses ~$500/year of electricity with a heat pump water heater that uses ~$100/year (that's about what ours uses) has a pretty quick payback period.

[ErroneousBosh]

> Newer stuff is more efficient. For example washers and dryers have a direct drive technology with gears that help it use less power and maybe even less water.

That's never going to pay off in the long run. They're not significantly more efficient and they're less repairable, so the penny you save per wash is going to be more than offset by buying a new washing machine every five years when the bearing fails just out warranty.

New washing machines have a plastic outer drum that's welded together, so you can't get them apart to replace the bearing when it fails. They are designed that way so they're essentially disposable - after 5000 washes, you must replace the whole washing machine instead of a five quid part you can get from the tractor supply place down the road.

[ggreer]

I don't think efficiency matters at all for washers, as they are a rounding error in terms of water usage. Most water is for agriculture, not domestic consumption.[1] The main issues for appliances are reliability and ease of repair. Newer machines have more electronics and software, making them worse in both respects.

1. https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-d...

[PaulDavisThe1st]

As a resident of rural New Mexico, and board member of our local village water association, I'ev thought about and spoken about this issue a lot. Most of the time, I'm saying the same as you.

However ... when you move from the biggest picture view (in this case either state or regional water use patterns) and instead focus on a smaller, local one (e.g. the well(s) that tap into a single aquifer for all the 250 people who live here), a different story emerges.

The story: the low-water appliances may make no difference at the state/regional level, but they may keep our aquifer within its normal range during a 23 year and counting drought. That is, while our residential water usage is swamped by the ranches down the road growing alfalfa for their animals, it is still relevant to the state of our aquifer, and reducing that usage by 30-50% (as has been the case over the last 30 years or so) may play a significant role in not overdrawing the aquifer.

[ggreer]

I assumed it would go without saying that a general statement about agricultural water usage would not apply to a desert community of 250 people experiencing a 23 year drought.

[mghackerlady]

Part of me wonders if things are like this because the masses have been trained to see their abuse as a good thing, in a similar way to how the american worker sees themselves not as exploited but as a temporarily restrained exploiter

[gchamonlive]

They are also likely to cost more and aren't normally directly available to regular customers, like you need either a business license of some sort and to contact a representative.

[strict9]

It is true commercial versions are slightly more expensive. But this is the tradeoff of buying something more durable and meant to be used continuously.

But it's not true that they are difficult to buy.

For my two examples: Commercial washer/dryer sets available through any appliance dealer. Commercial hospitality TVs and other commercial electronics are available via Grainger.

[gchamonlive]

Might be a regional thing. Here where I live I don't think it'd be easy to find commercial or industrial grade appliances for domestic use

[dugidugout]

I'll add Oreck to the list! Their commercial vacs [0] are robust (the design is dead simple) and overall a refreshing packaging in a bizzaro land where lights and sensors are prioritized over weight and profile! Although I did hear they have fallen from prestige as result from an international buyout some-time ago. Leaving this here for the chance someone can provide an account! Mine from the mid 2000s is still a beast!

[0]: https://oreck.com/collections/commercial-vacuums