[moondance]

Have you had the pleasure of coaching a technologically illiterate grandparent through the process of learning how to use a smartphone? It’s a never-ending job and disheartening for all parties involved. Modern mobile UX is not designed with accessibility for the elderly in mind, and it is constantly changing in a way that demands constant re-learning. Not to mention the disabilities and neurological conditions often involved.

[mrweasel]

I'm in my 40s, there is a shit ton of modern UX I struggle with. Basically anything gesture based for example, but really a lot of apps are just shit and have no sensible UX design behind them, so you need to try to click everything and hope you don't mess something up.

To me it's easy to see how someone over 70 might simply refuse to use an app. Especially if it doesn't support scaling the UI to well.

[doubled112]

The first time I used iOS I noticed a lot of things it considers "normal" are completely undiscoverable unless you know.

Swipe down from the top. No, the other top.

Click share, now click "find in page". Wait, that doesn't share at all?

[TeMPOraL]

"Share" is one of the worst inventions of all. What it does in phones is random across apps and platforms, and usually has nothing to do with what the word "share" means in any other context.

[butlike]

You're sharing data between apps. It's an app->app API, essentially. You can easily send an app store listing to your Reminders "Wishlist" section if you want, for example.

It's definitely not only social sharing.

[TeMPOraL]

I wasn't even thinking social. Problem is, the actual operation being done is one of:

- Give the other app a temporary/transient copy of a document or a file

- Give the other app the actual file (R/W)

- Give the other app the actual file but some other way (there's at least two in Android now, I believe?)

- Give the other app some weird-ass read-only lens into the actual file

- Re-encode the thing into something else and somehow stream it to the other app

- Re-encode the thing into something else and give it that (that's a lossy variant of transient copy case - example, contact info being encoded into textual "[Name] Blah\n[Mobile] [phone]" text/plain message).

- Upload it to cloud, give the other app a link

- Upload it to cloud, download it back, and give the other app a transient downloaded copy (?! pretty sure Microsoft apps do that, or at least that's what it feels when I try to "Share" stuff from that; totally WTF)

- Probably something else I'm missing.

You never really know which of these mechanisms will be used by a given app, until you try to "Share" something from it for the first time.

Now, I'm not saying the UI needs to expose the exact details of the process involved. But what it should do is to distinguish between:

1. Giving the other app access to the resource

2. Giving the other app an independent copy of the resource (and spell out if it's exact or mangled copy)

3. Giving the other app a pointer to the resource

In desktop terminology, this is the difference between Save As, Export and copying the file path/URL.

Also, desktop software usually gives you all three options. Mobile apps usually implement only one of them as "Share", so when you need one of the not chosen options, you're SOL.

[crazygringo]

If you think of it as "send" rather than "share" it makes a lot more conceptual sense. Don't get caught up on the word.

It's almost always to send the content somewhere, whether it's a platform, an app, the clipboard, etc.

Not always always, but almost always.

[NooneAtAll3]

I still despise whoever decided that swipe-from-top needs 2 versions somehow

[tosti]

"Buttons" that are just labels, that's on the top of my F* U list.

[moondance]

I don’t think people understand the scale of the issue. Each decade that goes by we welcome a new class of elderly, and each decade that goes by, we continue to write off those elderly users.

The failure of the well-intentioned but insufficient currents solutions is well underlined by this case. Sure, you could get this guy an android phone with a custom launcher, or an iPhone on Assistive Access, and he might be able to place a call. But good luck setting him up on Ticketmaster, or the Dodgers website, or wherever they expect him to go to redeem and utilize his tickets.

[rchaud]

At airports and drugstores, the magazine racks will usually have a "Guide to iPhone/Android" type publication with a ton of pictures that are aimed at this market. I picked one up and realized while flipping through it that there is way too much for a brand new user to be able to absorb. The gestures needed on iOS to pull up options that are otherwise invisible in the UI will be nonsensical to someone whose UI/UX frame of reference is an ATM screen or a gas pump (or self-checkout kiosk which they might not use) where every option is shown on screen without needing additional navigation. Just like the first iPhone, come to think of it.

[SoftTalker]

Now have your grandparent try to teach you something you aren't interested in and don't really want to learn, and see how it goes.

[moondance]

This guy has a flip phone. Seems like that was the last “new” thing he could learn. Its user flows never change and he’s memorized it. The idea that the average old person is so obstinate that they would refuse to learn the new technology if it was easy to do so is not something I can accept. Not being able to communicate and interact with the modern world on its terms isn’t fun for anyone.

[SoftTalker]

There's an older guy at my office who often says "if you don't want to do something, don't learn how" and I think this attitude is common. It's not that they can't learn this smartphone stuff, they just don't want to use it.

[this_user]

That's their choice, but they also choose to suffer the consequences. Expecting the world to cater to your needs specifically is such a typical boomer attitude and should no longer be tolerated.

[SoftTalker]

And, expecting people who are happy with what they already have and have already paid for to switch to your newer, more complicated, more expensive system so that your numbers go up is another attitude that should not be tolerated.

[raw_anon_1111]

I am sure that you also think they should have a place for his horses to feed because he doesn’t want to deal with a car.

[mwigdahl]

While we're at it, let's get rid of the ADA. Those disabled people expecting the world to cater to their needs specifically are so abusive to those of us with perfectly functional bodies and flexible minds.

[crazygringo]

There's a big difference between legislating accomodations for people who physically can't do something, vs. those who can but choose not to.

The former makes sense. The latter doesn't. I don't get to park in handicapped spaces that are closer to the store just because I'd like to.

[raw_anon_1111]

The ADA forces reasonable accommodations. It doesn’t mean that car manufactures have to build cars for blind people.

[the_other]

Using a battery powered electronic device as a “pass” detected by another handheld electronic device, both of which are contacting cell towers, exchanging data with data centres 100s of kms away, filling out detailed profiles of user behavior … rather than a paper ticket?

[EvanAnderson]

You will be the "boomer" some day. I wish people had more empathy.

An example: Presbyopia came on hard for me in the last couple of years Now I really appreciate low-vision affordances that, as a younger person, I couldn't have cared less about and would have seen as an unnecessary cost.

[budman1]

I used to laugh about the 'picture signs'; like the universal nose in book sign that means library. Or the airport logo on the exit sign on the freeway.

Until I spent some time in a country whose predominate language (and signage) was not english.

Maybe those pictorial signs are a good idea after all.

[ryandrake]

Exactly.

When OP is 85, I hope some whippersnapper 20 year old says to him, "Come on, grandpa. You need to get that neural advertisement brain implant like the rest of us, or you can't buy anything. Why should businesses need to support your lame smartphone? Step into the 22nd century, pops!"

[booleandilemma]

Learn how to use whatever shitty technology is being pushed onto the masses or die, yes, that's the right attitude for sure.

[raw_anon_1111]

No it’s often just stubbornness. My dad is 85 and he can take the time to learn anything he wants to learn. But refuses to change when he doesn’t.

My mom is 83, a retired school teacher and she has been using computers since 1986 and has an entire networked computer setup in her office with multiple computers and printers. She went from the original Apple //e version of AppleWorks to Office now.

[EvanAnderson]

> My dad is 85 and he can take the time to learn anything he wants to learn. But refuses to change when he doesn’t.

I think that's natural and reasonable. I'm certainly less tolerant of drains on my time as I get older. I can imagine that, at 85, I would be making a lot of calculations about ROI on my time.

Edit: For those seeing an argument in my statement above re: forcing people to use technology or forcing business to make an accommodation for people who don't want to use technology: I am not making a statement either way. I'm simply saying it seems logical and reasonable, natural even, to value your time more when you have less of it.

[crazygringo]

Great. Then you can decide whether it's worth the ROI to buy a phone for your season tickets or not.

But if you don't want to, then you shouldn't be expecting other people to accomodate you.

[raw_anon_1111]

And then that’s a you problem no one should be forced to make affordances for things you can do and are unwilling to do

[WarmWash]

I think the most frustrating thing is that UI's largely haven't improved in 10-15 years, yet we still get constant changes from people trying to justify their jobs or manufacture "impact".

[duskdozer]

Maybe it's the point you're making, but UIs have deteriorated so much in the last 10-15 years, forget improved. I'm completely miserable.

[suzzer99]

My Dad and I have had about 7 sessions just on copy-and-paste on the computer. He kind of got it for a minute there, but didn't use it enough, so now it's gone and he's back to just re-typing everything.

[socalgal2]

It's not designed for anyone to go though - Yesterday I setup an Nintendo Switch for my Uncle. There were so many steps it was ridiculous. Off the top of my head

1. enter your language

2. enter your region

3. enter your wifi and password

4. select your wifi (why 3 didn't do this I have no effing idea)

5. create a MII, you can't skip this step though you can pick a pre-created one

6. link your MII to an account - you can skip this but the device is useless without an account if you didn't buy games on physica media

7. Setting up an account shows a QR code so now you have to get our your phone

8. Enter your email and get send a verification email

9. switch to your email app and find the code

10. switch back to your browser and enter the code

11. Fill out your name/address/phone etc....

12. Now you want to download an app so you can use your switch so, pick e-store

13. Get QR code and scan

14. Get told you were sent another email verification

14. Go to email app and get code

15. Switch back to browser and enter code

16. Type in your CC Card info

17. Now pick a game to purchase

18. The purchase button is off screen after a bunch of legalize before it and no indication you need to scroll down

19. Choose purchase

20. Get told you need to verify again (in a tiny box you can check "remember me")

there were more steps. The whole process took about an hour, maybe longer

Even with all of that, there just a ton of stuff about a Switch that's taken for granted or poorly designed. As an example, he wanted to play Switch Sports Golf. The Switch home screen assumes you're using both controllers. At some point Switch Sports Golf switches to using just one controller. That's not clear at all. Another example, you pick Golf. It displays a screen showing you to hold the controller down and press the top button (X), but also on that screen is a generic, "press (A)" to continue this dialog. It's a very poorly designed screen giving to conflicting directions.

I get it, he's not the target market.

[kulshan]

I have! Do it everyday as a program coordinator and you have an incredibly pessimistic view. Is it challenging and do many need continued resources? Yes, but I see seniors learn and embrace new technology as they want/need every day. LA has some amazing digital literacy programs, along with free devices.

[moondance]

I have too. You misunderstood me. I find it to be a worthwhile endeavor. I’m not pessimistic, I’m realistic about the ways in which the deck is stacked against seniors in this department. That’s why my UX work is singularly focused in accessibility. But that’s also why I don’t begrudge an old person for saying enough is enough. And I don’t think that living a lo-fi life should marginalize you.

[butlike]

This is why it's so important to iteratively adapt. I'm not saying you have to catch every new version, but to go from a NES to a PlayStation 5 would be a jarring experience like going from a dumb cell phone (or landline?) to an iPhone 17.

I would say catch enough iterations to keep the basic premise in mind, because there is a bit of personal responsibility to maintain technological literacy in the modern age. A telephone isn't really an esoteric device, either.

[zorobo]

My dad never learnt how to use our VCR. When VCRs went the way of the dodo, he felt vindicated.

Same with the DVD player.

Now, at 94, he’s on Netflix, no problem.

He has a flip phone.

[carlosjobim]

In a case like this, you just buy the tickets for your grandfather and print them out for him.

[cardiffspaceman]

If the app is meant to defeat counterfeits or reselling the Dodgers won’t be willing to accept printed tickets.

[carlosjobim]

It's not possible to make counterfeits with a modern ticketing system. Each ticket is a unique code, and they are scanned on entry to match with the codes in the system.

As for resale: The attendee name is tied to the ticket in these cases, and ID is checked at the door. I guess an app could be more effective for preventing this than normal digital/paper tickets.

[nobody9999]

>Each ticket is a unique code, and they are scanned on entry to match with the codes in the system.

>As for resale: The attendee name is tied to the ticket in these cases, and ID is checked at the door. I guess an app could be more effective for preventing this than normal digital/paper tickets.

That's as may be, and that would be great for MLB games, but it's not the way it works[0]. The process requires the smartphone app from purchase through accessing your seat after using the restroom during the game. No paper tickets ever any more.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47671480

[etc-hosts]

Whenever I click through the 10 screens I need to get through to pay at Target or the local large grocery store, and I'm not even talking about Self Checkout, I seethe thinking maybe the "YOU WILL EAT THE BUGS" guys have the right idea. There's no way my elderly mother would be able to deal.

[whatsupdog]

The second biggest reason (after freedom to install apps) why I don't use an iphone is: for the love of God I can't use the gesture to switch windows. It used to be simple swipe up from bottom. Now you have to do an arc or something from the corner. I can never get it right.

[georgebcrawford]

That’s not true.

You can swipe up from the bottom, just as you described. That brings up the app switcher.

Or you swipe along the bottom in a straight line (no arc, no corner) to go directly between apps rather than choosing which one. Good for rapid switching.

I’m 90% sure it’s the exact same for Android. I switch every year or two and the most recent was in August I think.