[Snild]

What a hassle!

Here in Sweden, your tax filings are public information; companies can just ask the government what you made last year. I have no idea if they actually do, though, and the data will be somewhat obfuscated if you have extra income on the side.

[anal_reactor]

I earn like €100k per year. Not a huge salary, but definitely above average. My family lives in Eastern Europe. Once I was hanging out with my cousin and his friends, all of these people had minimum-wage jobs. Not really my type of social circle, but I have no issues being cool for an evening. Then suddenly my cousin drinks one too many and starts blabbering about how "fucking rich" I am and all eyes turn to me because guess what the whole group smelled an opportunity. Never spent time with them again.

I assume such situations occur often in Sweden where it's really awkward if you want to hang out with a crowd from lower social class because they know your earnings.

[vkou]

> I assume such situations occur often in Sweden where it's really awkward if you want to hang out with a crowd from lower social class because they know your earnings.

You don't have to be in Sweden to have a pretty good idea within a few minutes of talking to someone, of what the ballpark for their earnings is.

Your social class is written all over your face, your clothes, your manners, your manner of speaking, the company you keep, the hobbies you have, where and how you spend your time...

[anal_reactor]

> Your social class is written all over your face, your clothes, your manners, your manner of speaking, the company you keep, the hobbies you have, where and how you spend your time...

This is not true for lots of software developers who grew up poor but got rich. I wear shitty clothes, live in the ghetto, my hobbies are video games, cycling, and porn, and when speaking I code-switch easily. If anything, it's the other way around - when I'm around city folks with their mannerisms and discussions about veganism I clearly see I don't fit and I come across as a neanderthal despite my income being around top 10%.

[sdoering]

I grew up with a single dad that while having a good salary also had the mortgage to pay. So I was middle class, but never had the niceties my peers had.

I moved out before finishing school (I did finish living on my own) and working 40 - 60 hours next to school - while being officially below the poverty line. This went on during most of my university days.

When starting a job I had to live frugally, because it had a really shitty salary.

Nowadays I am in the top 5 - 2 percent of earners (depending on how you calculate/count.

I still wear regular clothes most of the time. I nearly never eat out. I spend on things people do not really see.

So yeah - I can relate. Especially when being socially thrown together with the kind of people you describe. 100% second this.

[anal_reactor]

Once I was invited to some gathering. Right at the beginning they asked me if I'm from $ENVIRONEMTNAL_ORGANIZATION. I thought they were just fucking with me so I replied laughing/ironically "Do I look like I'm from $ENVIRONEMNTAL_ORGANIZATION?".

Turns out, they were dead serious. For the rest of the evening we had some boring-ass shitty activities and insufferable conversations. 0/10 I checked out early and never showed up again.

[user_7832]

…I'm a bit afraid to ask, but are folks from Greenpeace supposed to be rich or something? (I'm not from the US so idk if it's a cultural thing I'm missing.)

[boelboel]

Most software related jobs on their own aren't seen as a 'high class' professions. It's a job which got extremely lucrative recently. It's similar to someone who made lots of money from the gold rush. The fact you were poor growing up usually means you'll never be seen as high class at older age either (part of the reason why some of these tech billionaires seem frustrated?)

It's not always too difficult to tell if someone is a software engineer from their behaviour and interests alone.

[Noumenon72]

I think you're describing all the ways that your social class is written all over everything. You could leverage your paycheck to try to change some of this, but your social class influences your decision not to bother.

[miek]

I am technically in the upper class based on income and place of residence. I drive an 11 year old vehicle, wear inexpensive clothes (often plain tees), eat out infrequently, etc. I unintentionally spend more in areas that tend not to be obvious to non-friends. I'd be upset if people could easily lookup my income.

[vkou]

Yes, you are very exceptional. A well-paid employee (or former employee) who lives somewhere nice, dresses like they are in college and drives a beat-up Civic and hopefully saves all his money, I can close my eyes, spin around, throw a rock, and have 20/80 odds of hitting someone who matches that exact description in this town.

But yes, it's possible you are sufficiently outside the grain that you don't have any obvious tells about your social class. And, of course, a dedicated confidence man could fake enough of them to fool enough people enough of the time.

But that would be the exception that would prove the rule. And even if they were publicly available, you have to be deeply pathological to be looking up the tax records of your acquaintances, I can't expect that to be a regular problem in Sweden.

[miek]

You failed to understand the intent of my self-description. I don't care about whether I'm exceptional, unique, or how many people there are matching my description where anyone lives. I only care that my income isn't publicly known and that it is not easily derived from my appearance or behavior, because it would change the nature of my relationships. I know of people who've had relationship problems with salary disclosure via OpenTheBooks etc.

[ragall]

An 11 years old vehicle could be a Corolla or an S-Klass.

[miek]

It's the lowest trim level of japanese minivan. Many hidden zipties threaded like stitches secure plastic panels and underbody guards.

I save more than most and spend more on things like gear and vacation. Nobody knows unless I allow it to be known. Among my peers (coworkers and friends from places I've lived), I easily live in the area w the most poverty. I prefer to keep my income level private. If it were known, it would likely change the nature of my relationships. Worst would be the nonproft where I occasionally help the same ~20 people, most in awful financial situations.

[oceansky]

People driving 11 years old S-Klass aren't usually rich, only irresponsible.

[ragall]

Why irresponsible ?

[Snild]

I've never had a problem like that. People don't bother looking it up -- probably because your socioeconomic class is apparent anyway from e.g. the area you live in. AFAIK, the only ones who have ever looked mine up are banks, when I was applying for mortgages.

[carlob]

Sweden is one of the countries with the lowest salary inequality in the world. In Eastern Europe 100k a year puts you at what 10x minimum wage? I think that would be considered a pretty high salary in France or Spain as well. I think your friend reaction is warranted, but I don't think it would happen often in Sweden...

[sdoering]

Even in Germany 100k€ a year puts you in the top 2% (maybe even top1%) for single earners. And in the top 5% for a couple.

So OP is - for eastern European standards (depending on which country specifically) very well off. Talking as if 100k€ was nothing special is actually quite telling imho.

[mmarq]

But it’s not guaranteed that you’ll ever be as rich as a pensioner who owns a flat outright.

Asset prices inflated so much that income is not completely irrelevant, but it is at best only half of the picture.

[anal_reactor]

Some people predict that asset prices will only go up compared to wages so if you buy a house today you'll be rich by the time you get old. There's a whole cult built around "SP500 grows 10% YoY".

[sdoering]

And I don't buy into it. When I sold my late fathers home, about 30 years after he had originally built it, I sold it for a bit less than he had paid for having it built.

So no: Asset prices not necessarily always go up. It depends significantly on where you build/own and how that area develops over your lifetime.

But - this deferred gratification - paying a morgage now to pay less rent in the future is clearly a bet towards a future in retirement where one has less disposable income, so it makes - from my vantage point at least - sense to invest now to have more freedom later.

Others have freedom now - and need to potentially scale down later. Both are valid positions imho.

Edit: Typo

[alexjplant]

Class warfare is a chart-topping hit in the US too. I've been on the receiving end of this rhetoric a few times in social situations but it's always been by college-educated people who get their politics from specific corners of the internet. They view those below them as ignorant, culturally-regressive boors and those above them as malicious hyper-capitalistic villains. That they've never dropped a fry basket or mopped a floor in their lives is of no consequence - they still find it appropriate to call people "tech bros" or, astoundingly enough, tell them that they "don't deserve to make as much as [they] do" because they view others' finances as an affront. It's personal dissatisfaction and consumerist impotence manifested as jealousy, nothing more, nothing less.

Interestingly enough I can't recall a single instance of a working-class person acting like this in a similar situation. A friendly ribbing and wise crack here and there, sure, but never as seething as somebody who feels like they should be making more than they do because they went to school for this, damnit!

[chasd00]

> They view those below them as ignorant, culturally-regressive boors and those above them as malicious hyper-capitalistic villains.

to rephrase an old Chris Rock joke, "the worst thing to an enlightened college-educated person with a nickle is anyone else with a dime".

[brikym]

But is the income data is also available to individuals? If I can find out the income of another professional in a similar role that becomes the anchoring point. Otherwise the company will just offer {prev_year_income} + peanuts.

[retSava]

It is. You can basically check out the company linkedin, people in similar roles/YoE, then google their name to find out their birthday, then just call our IRS. Ask for declared income for year X, X-1 etc. This gives you an anchor as parent said. It's a way to change the power imbalance when negotiating. I know friends that do this when applying for jobs. There's a law coming that makes this basically worthless, since the salary range for the role must be declared openly with the ad. And that btw is one of the first questions I ask when talking to hiring manager or HR, to find out if it's a good fit.

[brikym]

Does this also change the way people peacock? I wonder if people would stop creating a facade of wealth (cars, jewellery etc) if the numbers were public. Then the winning move is to invest.