[dotBen]

I wouldn't want a touchscreen MBP even if it was free, anyone else feel similar?

I don't get the draw - we already optimize for keyboard commands to avoid living our fingers over to a touchpad. Why would I want to start clicking on my screen?

If you're using your computer for tasks (rather than entertainment) and you're not a visual designer, I don't get why Apple are apparently going to be putting them into the new MBP line later this year.

[AussieWog93]

I feel like the point isn't "there should be a touch screen MacBook" but more "holy shit we simulated a working touch screen by looking at reflections coming off the glass, isn't that cool".

[bitmasher9]

Sometimes, if I’ve been using my iPad for awhile and switch over to my MBP, I might reach out and touch the screen out of habit. I can’t be the only one.

[antonymoose]

I had the opposite problem when work issued me a ThinkPad - I would accidentally brush my screen with my caveman knuckles once a day and somehow nuke a dozen lines of code.

[bruckie]

My kids do this all the time. They also use the touchscreen in conventional laptop configuration (not folded-flat tablet mode) on their Chromebooks all the time. It's bizarre to me. I'm always trying to get them to use the keyboard, but they don't care. Example: enter password on the keyboard, then tap the log in button on the screen with their finger, rather than just pressing enter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[egeozcan]

My 3 year-old never had access to tablets or phones but sees us using phones all the time. So when he gets curious and touches the laptop screen (something he does with our phones occasionally as well), he's shocked to see it doesn't react.

[jval43]

I do this on my iPad with Magic keyboard and I'm a die hard command line user otherwise.

I think the reason I started doing it on the iPad is that the keyboard focus is sometimes inconsistent, so clicking or tab-tab-tab-enter is slower and less reliable vs. just touching the screen. Definitely feel the gorilla arm though.

[alsetmusic]

My father did within six months of owning an iPhone.

[Waterluvian]

I don’t understand touchscreens on laptops that aren’t designed to fold flat. It’s got the feel of finger painting an unconstrained birthday balloon.

[dwedge]

I had a laptop that folded to 180, without touch screen, and had a webcam hidden under F7 so it either looked straight up your nose or showed your huge fingers

[samplatt]

You're essentially holding a large tablet upright, but all the weight is taken up up the base. Rather than finger-painting, try holding it on both sides like a tablet or gamepad and operating with thumbs.

Scrolling/controlling checkboxes and switches feels GREAT. Depends entirely what you're using it for.

[dwedge]

While I'm the same and totally agree with you, the few times I've been using touchscreen I find the habit sticks so hard that for days I keep touching my macbook screen, so there is definitely some subconscious desire for this (or I would have defaulted to using the trackpad even if my brain thought touch was available)

[ThoAppelsin]

It is indeed addictively intuitive. Once these people get to use it for a week, they won’t ever be able to look back.

[post-it]

> I don't get why Apple are apparently going to be putting them into the new MBP line later this year.

Apple has apparently being going to put a touchscreen in a laptop every year since the iPad came out, and it's never materialized.

[xmprt]

Previously, those were rumors from enthusiasts who wanted to see it. Now it's an internal leak so there's a lot more credibility to those rumors.

[hu3]

No, there were internal "leaks" in the past as well.

https://archive.ph/xOgtp

[xmprt]

> Based on current internal deliberations, the company could launch its first touch-screen Mac in 2025

It looks like those leaks aren't too far off what I'm saying. Deadlines slipping by 1-2 years isn't way off especially for such a new/different product direction. And the rumor also said "could" which means even internally, it wasn't a strong claim.

[jacobgkau]

> January 11, 2023

> Based on current internal deliberations, the company could launch its first touch-screen Mac in 2025

Even if it didn't come to pass, just a few years ago is a more relevant leak than the every-year-since-the-iPad-released "rumors."

[hu3]

Yes and it's an article about a leak 3 years ago. And there were more "leaks" before that. I just can't be bothered to research and link the obvious to argument against an "opinion".

[mrweasel]

Because it would blur the lines between the iPad and MacBook to much. Right now it's two clearly distinct product lines, with separate use cases. Adding touch to the MacBook could hurt iPad sales (in the pro segment).

I also think Apple knows that their laptops doesn't need touch. It's a gimmick and adds nothing to the usability, but raises the cost.

[fortran77]

All my Windows laptops have touch screens and I love it. What is the problem with having another input method available? You only use it when it’s appropriate.

[radley]

It just feels ancient and weird now that I can tap every screen I own, except my Mac. I don't want to replace the Mac's keyboard & mouse with a touchscreen, I would simply like it to support touch.

(This also made me realize the impending obsolescence of the Studio Monitor XDR: no touch support.)

[kjkjadksj]

Why though? What compels you to even want that?

[radley]

My iPad is mounted next to my Macs. I use it as a media player, checking deliveries, personal messages when I'm on my work laptop, and such. All of that is done via touch. When I need to flip over to my Mac to do the same thing, I have to use a 40 year old interface (a mouse).

It's not hard. I don't think we need to make everything touch-size on Mac. Small icons & buttons are perfectly fine in a production environment, and they're considered to be accessible. Just let us touch the screen.

[kjkjadksj]

I don’t understand what is wrong with the mouse/trackpad. 40 year old tech? I bet touchscreen tech is that old too.

[isidusjdjsu]

> I have to use a 40 year old interface (a mouse)

…yeah, and?

Should we just drop mouse’s and keyboards now because they’re “old interfaces”?

C’mon, please. I’m not sure how old you are but you sound like you grew up with an iPad in your hand.

[radley]

First laptop was a Powerbook 100. First computer was Atari 800. Currently use an MX Master 4 mouse. I totally get the irony.

[mrweasel]

Tech-reviewers keep harping on the MacBook for not having a touch option, but I think it's mostly of check a box.

Something no one seems to address is that it makes no sense to have touch on the laptop screen, because you honestly don't use it much, at least in a professional setting. You'll always dock your laptop anyway, either for comfort, or legal compliance (or both). My 27" monitor doesn't have touch, that's what I use 99% of the time, the laptop screen is a small auxiliary screen on the side. Why I reach out and touch it? That's also why the touch bar made no sense, it was on a keyboard that I almost never use.

[Wowfunhappy]

I wouldn't want a touch screen to become the primary input device, but I think it would be useful on occasion. Not entirely unlike how we still have touchpads even though we try to use keyboard commands.

[latexr]

> I wouldn't want a touchscreen MBP even if it was free, anyone else feel similar?

I don’t want a touchscreen MBP, but as long as touching the screen is an optional interaction and everything else is the same, I see no reason to reject it if it was free. I can just not touch the screen.

> we already optimize for keyboard commands to avoid living our fingers over to a touchpad.

“We” is a much smaller percentage of people than you’re likely thinking of. We’re outliers, not the norm. Yes, even amongst professionals.

[christophilus]

I have 2-3 old touchscreen laptops lying around. The touchscreen is useless to me. Worse than useless. If I ever use it, it’s accidentally, and I end up annoyed.

[2muchcoffeeman]

Why? Better than a track pad.

Use a Surface Pro some time. If you are just casually browsing or reading a website. I find it much nicer to just tap on a link or swipe to scroll.

[eitally]

I very much would want a touchscreen for my use cases.

[lukan]

Well, when I am doing rather thinking work, so not type in commands as fast as possible - I very much do like my laptop to have a touchscreen. It is way more ergonomic and comfortable, but yes, slower. But when the real work happens in my head, I like to be rather comfortable.

(Also I can immediately test touch features of the apps I develope)

[emmelaich]

Sometimes I feel the urge to do some art, and the bigger surface might allow that. Perhaps in lieu, make a bigger trackpad.

[lysace]

The ergonomic aspects are horrible. I believe there's actual research on this from the 70s/80s/90s.

[dayvid]

Seems like it only makes sense if it's a hybrid tablet laptop like the Yoga. Otherwise it's a nice gimmick. I can also see Apple being terrified at someone's dirty fingers smudging the laptop, though they'd have some anti-smudge coating built in at that point

[thesuitonym]

Macs are definitely not optimized for keyboard commands. If you feel the software you use is keyboard optimized, odds are it's not really Mac software.

[allthetime]

Absolute base line example.

Copy text in terminal

Mac: command+c

Linux/windows: ctrl+shift+c (unless you want to cripple proper ctrl+c functionality in which case you can (maybe) activate it from a UI menu)

The command key on Mac is somewhat magical and engages in all sorts of productivity and finger efficiency related context switching so that you can do more with less physical movement.

I’m genuinely curious who you think does it better

[mcv]

I really just discovered after many decades that you can still just select text and paste it with the middle mouse button just like you could in the Solaris days. No need for any keyboard command.

Even better is that it's a separate clipboard from the ctrl+shift+C clipboard, so if you want, and you're careful, you can copy-paste two things independently from each other.

[mwelpa]

however to make a screenshot you've to press shift+ctrl+cmd+4 instead of just win+shift+s.

[theultdev]

yeah but that's actually easier to do (on a macbook k/b).

you get really good at hitting either the 4/5 while holding those down to take a pic/vid.

personally win+shift+s is too bunched together, less comfortable to hit.

[jonhohle]

macOS has been one of the best keyboard OSes for over a decade, maybe longer. Nearly everything is bindable without additional software or third party apps. This can be done on globally or app-specific. A lot of this comes from the deep script ability that used to be a priority but has fallen by the wayside in recent years.

[9dev]

Huh? Of all the wonky shit about my Mac, the flawless keyboard navigation is really none of that

[72deluxe]

I had been using Windows my entire life and using a Mac in 2009? was awful. How do I get to the menu bar? Ctrl-F2. They keep changing the behaviour of the menu so that cursor keys don't wrap at the bottom of a menu so you have to know which direction you want to go to get to a menu item - make your choice! Up or down!

How do I get to the dock so that I can open the Applications menu? Ctrl-F3. left left left left left up. Then the popup menu doesn't respond to any letters.

All of this contrasted with Windows which had Alt + key for the menu. I learned it from Windows 3.11 for incredible speed:

- Alt space - show the window menu

- Alt space x - maximize

- Alt space n - minimize

- Alt space r - restore

- Windows key - start menu

- Windows key > P > right cursor > N - notepad (the right cursor = accessories)

This was broken in later start menus. The modern start menu is absolutely useless and takes forever. Up until XP this worked fine.

- (with Quicklaunch): Windows + N (number) - launch that item. Eg. Windows + 3 will launch the third item across. No idea if they broke this in Windows 11.

Under Windows 98 all of these were lightning fast. Explorer behaved as you'd expect too.

None of this was possible on the Mac and using it was very very very slow with a mouse to wave around the screen.

[9dev]

I mean, all of this is available in MacOS as well, and configurable even—your main complaint seems to be that it works differently from Windows?

MacOS is a different operating system with different paradigms; instead of a start menu, you'd use Spotlight search for the same effect, which can be invoked with CMD+Space.

[72deluxe]

No, the main complaint is that you can't do half of those things with a keyboard. Eg. how do I maximise a window on macos with my keyboard?

I have been using macos for decades and use it daily at work so I understand it is different. I am just saying that the out-of-the-box functionality for keyboard usability is very poor compared to Windows (and Linux DEs which imitate Windows).

I end up using Rectangle on macos for moving windows and maximising them using keyboard shortcuts because else it's infuriating for window management to have to move from the keyboard to the mouse all the time. The usability under Tahoe for window edges etc. is even worse with a mouse than previous versions and a complete joke, so I am stuck on Sequoia.

[9dev]

> how do I maximise a window on macos with my keyboard?

System settings > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Window > Fill. Default on my machine is fn+control+f, but you can also reassign that there of course (which AFAIK is something Windows doesn't let you do, by the way.)

> I end up using Rectangle on macos for moving windows and maximising them using keyboard shortcuts

I also used to use Rectangle, but by now the built-in window management shortcuts fulfil the same purpose out of the box (almost, that is; where Rectangle can move Windows onto the next screen, that is arguably where the built-in shortcuts fall flat, only being able to arrange on a single screen)

[dwedge]

I'm surprised you feel that way. I fight with my mac every day for one reason or another. At least it's not as bad as the days where some software used Cmd + letter and some used ctrl +letter, but for instance Cmd tab will switch to the wrong window when I go back and I have to use the mouse. Window switching in general is a lot harder if you only have the keyboard because the laptop is docked without a magic trackpad

[codesnik]

strange. Some keyboard shortcuts in os x are kinda weird and not intuitive to linux or windows users, but they are there. It's totally possible to use mac without trackpad. even cmd+tab switcher has a lot of hidden (but googlable) things: while still holding cmd after initial cmd+tab, you can close apps with q, switch to other apps with tab and (cmd+)shift+tab or left/right arrows, show app windows with down, etc. There's also a cmd+` for switching between one app's windows. I still find that distinction weird from usability perspective, but it's not too hard to adapt to it.

[bmelton]

> totally possible to use mac without trackpad

As I discover every time I have a mouse fail, it is exceptionally difficult to use a modern Mac without a pointer device because at some point, it became quite difficult to get from (eg) the settings nav panel to the settings panel. I can CMD+SPACE to open spotlight, type 'Settings' to get to a settings panel, type 'Bluetooth' to open the bluetooth settings, and where I feel like I _should_ be able to `Tab` or `Enter` into the devices list, or have SOME way to navigate over there, the only way I've found to be able to is to plug in a physical mouse

Moreover, I occasionally encounter modals that won't let me tab to their action buttons, requiring a pointer device click to dismiss

[phatskat]

Take a peek in the accessibility settings - there is a setting for keyboard navigation that defaults to Off - setting jt On should let you navigate those items

[codesnik]

huh. I just did what you describe above (on tahoma) and was able to tab into the list of bluetooth devices, no problem.

do you have "Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard navigation" on? I thought it is on by default, but apparently it isn't. Without it "tab" only jumps between text fields and checkboxes.

There's also an "Accessibility > Keyboard > Full keyboard access", which gives more controls.

[paxys]

Specific applications sure, but the base OS interface is unusable without a trackpad.

[Jeremy1026]

Cmd+Space to open spotlight, type in the first 3 or 4 letters of whatever you're trying to do (an application to open, or a system setting to change) and then Return gets me about where I need to go most of the time. Cmd+Tab and Cmd+` for window selection. I don't do much else on the OS itself so my bases are covered.

[72deluxe]

This is true for the most part, unless you adjust keyboard settings in System Settings to let all UI elements be focusable with the keyboard (for tabbing between UI elements). I think it used to be under "keyboard" but they might have moved it in the recent Control Center reshuffle.

[__MatrixMan__]

Really? I find that on MacOS apps are very inconsistent about whether popping open a menu shows me hints for selecting items in that menu. Those same apps are consistent about it on Linux.

And then there's the bonkers window manager which can't move focus directionally (e.g. Super + left) and so you have to fall back to Cmd + tab tab tab tab but even then there's no consistency about whether you're switching between app instances or windows instances within the same app...

[cosmic_cheese]

Display of shortcuts in menus is the responsibility of the app developer (especially in the case of use of foreign UI toolkits). If you don’t see them it’s because its dev dropped the ball and the Mac version is an afterthought.

[__MatrixMan__]

I think its more about priorities. I expect touch related features to be a bit rough on Linux and I expect the same for keyboard focused things on Mac.

[cosmic_cheese]

Skipping keyboard shortcut indicators in menus feels a bit like leaving the back seat out of a four-door sedan, but maybe that’s just me.

[JSR_FDED]

Cmd+Shift+Tab goes in the opposite direction.

[__MatrixMan__]

Yes but what goes left, right, up, or down?

[devmor]

“Flawless” is absolutely the opposite of how I’d describe the third class keyboard navigation in MacOS.

It’s actually more intuitive to use a magic keyboard on the iPad than on the desktop OS.

[sitharus]

What do you find missing from macOS keyboard navigation?

I've been using macs since the 90s so I'm quite used to it, so I'd love to know what I've been missing out on.

[devmor]

I have a lot of complaints but I would say my three big gripes are:

- Window navigation within (rather than between) open programs. Mainly if one is on an external monitor, this is just a nightmare and I end up using expose and clicking the window instead.

- Window positioning (I installed 3rd party software called Rectangle for this last year so it’s kind of solved but if we’re talking about the vanilla experience this is a big one)

- Having to switch focus to the dock and navigate one by one through shortcuts to open them instead of the Super+Dock position shortcuts that Windows and KDE expose

[sitharus]

Interesting, those are problems I don't have, I guess due to my work and workflow.

Command-` works for window switching as I expect, probably simply due to being used to it so I know exactly how It works.

Window positioning is an interesting one. I can't stand windows being positioned through tools, I stack them like you would with papers and shuffle through so the edge overlap is really important. Probably showing my age there!

And I never use the dock. Spotlight gets me everything I'd need from there.

[samtheprogram]

They kinda added window positioning with Tahoe -- there are things I like more about it than Rectangle (resizing), but I found that it was janky enough I switched back to Rectangle.

I rarely use the Dock, it's somewhat eye candy I leave up, or add stacks for folders that I use, but typically for keyboard action I reach for spotlight (cmd+space). Now, spotlight occasionally shitting the bed, that's another issue...

[allthetime]

Window navigation is just ctrl+direction

[nandomrumber]

> Window navigation within open programs

Isn’t table cmd + ~

[a96]

The absolute first thing that's needed: Maximize window.

[72deluxe]

Annoyingly it doesn't even maximize properly. You have to use alt-click for sensible behaviour.

They also decided about 10? years ago to make it behave as a "fullscreen" button which was really useless to me on a Mac Pro with 2 screens, where it would only ever "zoom" to one screen and then make the other screen display the desktop wallpaper - not the actual desktop - the wallpaper.

Useless.

[Zarel]

Ctrl+Fn+F?

[platevoltage]

At least we have trackpads that are worth a crap.

[devmor]

I do adore the macOS trackpads, they blow anything else I’ve used out of the water.

The keyboard (physically) is also just very pleasant to type on.

[platevoltage]

There is no comparison. I even use their trackpad in my desktop setup. The keyboards are fine. I prefer a mechanical keyboard, but this is a laptop of course. I do want to strangle someone over at Apple for deciding to NOT put the control key in the bottom left corner though. Luckily it's not a hard fix.

[paxys]

It would make sense if the screen folded over. In a laptop form factor a touch screen is just annoying because it keeps pushing the screen back.

[lofaszvanitt]

Maybe they solved the greasy fingers leaving smudges on your screen problem with a new surface. :D

[mcv]

I completely disagree. I've got a laptop with a touch screen, and it's occasionally very useful. It's rarely my primary input method, but when you're not constantly using the mouse, how often do you lose track of where the mouse cursor is? Instead of reaching for the mouse, figuring out where the cursor is, and then carefully maneuvering it over the button I want to click, I can just reach out to the screen.

A touch screen is incredibly useful when you're not currently already holding your mouse. It's easier to switch from keyboard to touch than from keyboard to mouse.

[harr01]

The benefit of a touchscreen MBP is that Apple will be forced to make their screens more protective.

[platevoltage]

I agree. I've never wanted a touch screen on my laptop. My screen gets smudged enough already.

[commandersaki]

Yes, I feel like it'll be a degrade in quality if they do this with any of their current line up. If they want to make a Macbook Ultra or whatever with it, that's fine -- I would have no interest in it.

[wombatpm]

But the Touch Bar was such a resounding success …

[skwallace36]

as long as it works well, would rather have it than not (but don't want to pay extra, so yeah... leave it out)