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by potatoskins 77 days ago
Yeah, I think Claude is a lot more logical in that sense, I use it for some therapy sessions myself and it pushes back a bit more than Open AI and Gemini
4 comments

Don’t call them therapy sessions. They kind of look like it but ultimately these are smoke blowing machines, which is very far from what a therapist would do.
Six decades later and we're still trying to explain to people the same things[1]:

> Some of ELIZA's responses were so convincing that Weizenbaum and several others have anecdotes of users becoming emotionally attached to the program, occasionally forgetting that they were conversing with a computer. Weizenbaum's own secretary reportedly asked Weizenbaum to leave the room so that she and ELIZA could have a real conversation. Weizenbaum was surprised by this, later writing: "I had not realized ... that extremely short exposures to a relatively simple computer program could induce powerful delusional thinking in quite normal people."

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

People generalize "therapy" all the time.

I [half] jokingly tell people that a nice drive in a 911 [can be] better/cheaper therapy that going to a PhD.

I'm starting to fear that LLMs are especially popular with people who can't call a doctor's office to make an appointment or tell a waiter they brought the wrong food. I struggle with those things, but I know that it's better to push myself outside of my comfort zone.

Are LLMs mainly a tool for people with atrophying social skills who want all interaction to happen via a text prompt that always responds in the most soothing way? I can't think of another reason to replace human therapy with an LLM.

I would be very careful doing this
In my experience, one also needs to be careful with actual therapists
You always have to be careful with LLMs, but to be fair, I felt like Claude is such a good therapist, at least it is good to start with if you want to unpack yourself. I have been to 3 short human therapist sessions in my life, and I only felt some kind of genuine self-improvement and progress with Claude.
And how do you draw the line between feeling progress and actually making progress?
Counter-point: I often raise the same question of people with human therapists. I do not get strong responses.
An LLM is completely unable to make that determination. They can’t even see you. So much information is lost when it’s text-only.

Where are you often asking this question/getting these weak responses?

You don't ask the therapist. You ask the person seeking therapy.
The same way you distinguish between feeling like having a problem and actually having a problem.
This is needlessly flippant and not really the same thing. Determining progress in a therapy setting is usually a collaborative effort between the therapist and the client. An LLM is not a reliable agent to make that determination.
> Determining progress in a therapy setting is usually a collaborative effort between the therapist and the client. An LLM is not a reliable agent to make that determination

Can anyone describe how to determine how a (professional, human) therapist is "a reliable agent" to make such a determination?

I didn’t claim that an LLM is that, and I fully agree that it is not. I’m saying that one is inherently one’s own judge of whether one has a problem. You go to a therapist when you feel you have a problem that warrants it. You stop going when you feel you don’t have it anymore. And OP is very likely assessing their progress in the same way. I wasn’t being flippant if the parent was asking a genuine question.
The thing they have in common is that they will both go forever....

Meaning neither the LLM or the licensed therapist will voluntarily say, you are healed, you don't need me anymore.

You can't be careful at all doing this, this is like smoking a cigarette in a dynamite factory.

Using LLMs for therapy is so deeply dystopian and disgusting, people need human empathy for therapy. LLMs do not emit empathy.

Complete disaster waiting to happen for that individual.

My experience is that it tries to look at your situation in an objective way, and tries to help you to analyse your thoughts and actions. It comes across as very empathetic though, so there can lie a danger if you are easily persuaded into seeing it as a friend.
>in an objective way

One of the great myths of models in countless fields/industries. LLM’s are absolutely in no way objective.

Now if you want to say it’s an “outside opinion“ that’s valid. But do not kid yourself into thinking it is somehow empirical or objective

It doesn't try to do anything. It doesn't work like that. It regurgitates the most likely tokens found in the training set.
That is so reductive of an analysis that it is almost worthless. Technically true, but very unhelpful in terms of using an LLM.

It is a first principle though so it helps to “stir the context windows pot” by having it pull in research and other shit on the web that will help ground it and not just tell you exactly what you prompt it to say.

They are amazing tools, but when people try to give them agency someone has to explain it in simple terms.
Hmmmm i didn't know that... so a machine is not human is your point? Look, i know it doesn't try, just like a sorting algo does not try to sort, or an article does not try to convey an opinion and a law does not try to make society more organized.
Therapy can be basically paid (I would argue - false) empathy, and in many cases vastly inferior to less transactional relationships.
Claudes have lots of empathy. The issue is the opposite - it isn't very good at challenging you and it's not capable of independently verifying you're not bullshitting it or lying about your own situation.

But it's better than talking to yourself or an abuser!

It's about the same as talking to yourself, LLMs simply agree with anything you say unless it is directly harmful. Definitely agree about talking to an abuser, though.

Sometimes people indeed just need validation and it helps them a lot, in that case LLMs can work. Alternatively, I assume some people just put the whole situation into words and that alone helps.

But if someone needs something else, they can be straight up dangerous.

> It's about the same as talking to yourself, LLMs simply agree with anything you say unless it is directly harmful.

They have world knowledge and are capable of explaining things and doing web searches. That's enough to help. I mean, sometimes people just need answers to questions.

> It's about the same as talking to yourself

In one way it's potentially worse than talking to yourself. Some part of you might recognize that you need to talk to someone other than yourself; an LLM might make you feel like you've done that, while reinforcing whatever you think rather than breaking you out of patterns.

Also, LLMs can have more resources and do some "creative" enabling of a person stuck in a loop, so if you are thinking dangerous things but lack the wherewithal to put them into action, an LLM could make you more dangerous (to yourself or to others).

Are you a therapist?
Using an LLM for therapy is like using an iPad as an all-purpose child attention pacifier. Sure, it’s convenient. Sure there’s no immediate harm. Why a stressed parent would be attracted to the idea is obvious… and of course it’s a terrible idea.
Using LLM for therapy is like using iPad as a study assistance. It doesn’t replace your work.
It’s nothing like that. Using an iPad for study assistance is a conduit to many credible sources and tools. They can be evaluated using context, reputation, reviews, etc.

An LLM generates non-deterministic information using sources you can’t even know, let alone evaluate, and is more primed to agree with you than give critical and objective evaluation. It is, at best, like asking your closest parent to help you through difficult interpersonal situations: The interaction is probably, subconsciously, going to be skewed enough towards soothing you that you just can’t consider it objective. The difference is that with an LLM, that’s deliberate. It’s designed in.