[spandrew]

I would never advise anyone buy a Microsoft Windows laptop these days — between the forced updates, the account and service-fee thirst, ads, and consumer unfriendly product release process (forced opt-in).

Guess what? With Apple's new Neo laptop the price is also way way wayyy out to lunch.

If MSFT gives a business a huge bulk discount to buy their laptops + Office360 + Teams... OK? But as a "consumer" it really sucks.

Want PC gaming? Steamdeck or Steambox.

[longislandguido]

The Neo costs $200 more than a comparable Windows laptop, but with half the RAM and storage as said comparable Windows laptop.

They're fighting to seize the very specific market segment of "I don't like Windows and don't want to use Linux or a Chromebook, and I'm also poor, but still want to pay a premium price for an underpowered tablet with keyboard glued to it."

[kstrauser]

Please, by all means do post a link to a comparable new Windows laptop for $400, including a fast GPU, reasonable amount of fast storage (and not counting an SD card or such), a high-DPI monitor, and non-embarassing build quality. I'd love to see this.

[chocochunks]

The GPU in the Neo isn't particularly fast...nor is the storage. Neo makes loads of compromises to hit $600 with some of it's features. Even for $400 you can get Windows PCs with TWO whole USB 3.0 ports. $400 quickly hits diminishing returns territory.

Like here's a $500 PC:

https://www.amazon.com/Aspire-Copilot-WUXGA-Display-Processo... https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Aspire-14-AI-review-Basic...

Twice the storage, twice the RAM, comparable GPU. CPU is a slower in single core, but comparable in multi-core. Faster storage. USB 4, HDMI, multiple USB A ports. Supports more than 1 external monitor. Yep, chassis and screen are worse but it's better in many other ways.

[kstrauser]

So for $100 less, you get a markedly lower-DPI screen that's 40% dimmer, a slower CPU, hotter running, and a worse chassis. Almost no one's going to be slapping multiple external monitors on either of these. If they did, they might run into the problem where the Acer is often limited to 640x480: https://community.acer.com/en/discussion/733442/have-a-new-a...

That is not remotely in the same category as the Neo.

[chocochunks]

You get twice as much RAM, twice as much storage. 4x faster storage too. You get a full sized HDMI port. You can do multiple monitors if you need to. It has a fan for better sustained performance. You can plug in a flash drive, mouse, monitor or other external peripheral without a dongle. Oh, and it's actually COOLER running than the Neo.

The Neo costs a $100 more, needs a $30 dongle to connect to 90% of the stuff people have, has half the RAM, half the storage, slower storage. Has considerably worse I/O. But has a better screen and build quality comparable to a MacBook Pro from 2007.

It's different compromises. Personally I'd rather have more RAM, storage and IO than a prettier case and better screen.

[justonceokay]

The quibbling about ram is strange only because Apple is much better positioned to utilize ram since they are vertically integrated. I produce music and occasionally compile Haskell on my 2016 MacBook with an i3 and 8gigs of ram. So I’m in the 99th percentile power user and a 10 year old machine works great. I bet the new Mac would be even better.

It doesn’t have 8gigs of ram to cheat the consumer. It’s because this company can do 10000 hours of user testing to see what people need to do their normal people things.

[xnyan]

> It's different compromises.

Completely agree. In my current role, I work with a lot more "normal" computer users, and it's helped me have a better understanding of many consumer technologies from different perspectives

I have seen the survey results and work studies for our large enterprise of Mac users, most (not all, but most) have zero change in satisfaction or perceived or objective work performance with 8GB vs 16GB MacBooks. Most users are swapping between outlook, teams and chrome, anything more than an M2 8GB MacBook Pro would be a waste for these users. Disk performance is similar, anything in the M line is more than good enough for 75%+ of our users. Mac screens and keyboards have very high customer satisfaction in our org. Just like 16 GB of RAM, it does not translate to a measurable increase in work performance, but subjectively people report higher satisfaction.

As for cost, the MacBook has a lower total cost of ownership in our organization than a Windows PC at a similar purchase price because: 1) longer OS support timeline from apple means they can be used longer and 2) at the end of their lifespan with us, they have much higher resale value than comparable windows hardware.

Just a different perspective as to why 8GB MacBooks make sense for some users.

[janalsncm]

You don’t need to buy Apple adapters. You can buy a $10 usbc to hdmi adapter off Amazon and it’ll work just fine.

Same thing with the USB A ports. Not really selling point imo.

[underlipton]

Can we please not have The Verge-tier PC/Mac slap fights on HN. Thanks.

[philistine]

You're proving the point. The computer you found wins on the specs page for sure. But the proof is in the pudding; Apple makes money hand over fist because they focus on reasonable specs, and quality. The thing that kills a modern laptop is not a slow CPU or RAM on the chip; it's a cheap chassis that breaks. That's what makes people change their computer.

[chocochunks]

Apple wins on the perception of being a luxury brand. That's it.

[janalsncm]

It’s not just about perception. Apple doesn’t load your computer up with crapware and ads from the five different companies in the supply chain.

They got away with it forever because at $600 there was no competition.

I would say it’s more that Microsoft will make your $600 feel cheap, Apple will make it feel respectable.

[gopher_space]

I have thirty years worth of old laptops in a closet. The macs all have hinges that still work.

It’s nice to own things designed to not fall apart after a few years.

[kstrauser]

That, and having a machine at this price point that people aren’t horrified to use.

[yourusername]

The screen is also much worse. 60% SRGB coverage 1920x1200 300 nits vs 97% 2408x1506 500 nits. I'd pick the macbook neo for $99 extra.

[thrawa8387336]

Should be at least 4X the RAM and 4X CPU cores, just to run Windows at a comparable speed.

[goldenarm]

The specs may be comparable, but not the end result : my $2000 Windows 11 laptop is slower and laggier than the Neo.

[chocochunks]

Is it your personal or corporate PC with corporate junk on it?

[goldenarm]

Personal PC. Fresh install from the official ISO with the least bloatware. It's still a nightmare.

[kstrauser]

So… the contention is that Windows isn’t good for work use? That’s not a compelling argument in its favor.

[chocochunks]

No, the contention is that corporate junk has a tendency to slow down PCs and equivalent software would do the same to the Neo or worse.

[kstrauser]

Huh, guess I’ve never worked at a Mac shop big enough to suffer Mac-ruining software. My biggest shop only had about 15,000 employees, so maybe it’s only the large companies enduring that.

[gamblor956]

You must have some broken hardware.

My $600 2022 corporate laptop is faster and smoother than a $600 Neo, and that's with the corporate spyware crap installed.

[Vasbarlog]

I had a Dell Latitude 7320 from 2022 as a corporate laptop. New it costed well over $2000. It was thermal throttling like crazy and it was even worse when I was on calls. It’s battery wouldn’t last more than an hour and even when you put it to sleep the fan would keep spinning. It would take more than 15 to restart and another 10 for most of the apps to open. It was literally unusable. Meanwhile my M1 MacBook from 2020 is still going strong.

[gamblor956]

I have a Dell Latitude from 2010 that is still goes strong (albeit it has no more battery). None of my classmates' Apples from that era, or the replacements, or the replacements for those replacements, or the replacements for the replacements of the replacements, are still working.

I also have a Thinkpad from 2000 that still works.

[goldenarm]

I double checked, the hardware is fine. It's a mix of catastrophic Nvidia drivers and Windows 11 famous lack of optimization. I'm much happier on my 3x cheaper laptop on Linux that can handle three 144hz displays flawlessly on the iGPU.

[moondance]

The irony of your last line. The whole thing of the Neo is that it feels distinctly not glued together—- not true of the $400 “comparables” you have in mind. I’m convinced the people who make these sorts of comments have either never experienced a non-terrible trackpad, or simply don’t care to.

[jwrallie]

The internet is full of these comments that go for ages in Mac vs PC discussions, but with the Neo pricing the arguments are breaking apart. Seeing the PC arguers bring up the being poor argument against the Mac buyers is showing how disruptive the Neo actually is.

[throwawaytea]

I was at Costco and ran browserbench speed test on the Neo vs several of the windows laptops. The neo beat them all, even the $1199 laptop. The $500 windows laptop for sale actually performed worse than my 2011 27" iMac running Linux Mint.

[bombcar]

Can you recommend a Windows laptop in the $400 range? I'm interested in a craptop for various Windows things that still pop up from time to time.

[ahartmetz]

Used T model Thinkpad probably? That's the least original advice you're going to get if you ask a bunch of nerds, and these guys know their computers ;)

[throawayonthe]

if you're in the US/Canada, you could do much worse than going on the "windows laptops on sale" page of bestbuy, e.g. this one is 330: https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-14-14-fhd-lapt...

i don't think it makes much sense to recommend specific craptops, every manufacturer seems to have a bazillion SKUs they reset every six months in that price range... buy whatever's on sale :p

or buy used of course

[zdc1]

Just go on eBay and find whatever ThinkPad fits your budget

[internet101010]

You are right about the first part but I think you're overestimating the number of people that see Apple products as status symbols. Maybe that was true a decade ago but I don't think it is anymore. Enough of the products have found their way to every country imaginable over time that an Apple laptop is... just another laptop.

A fun, brightly colored, relatively inexpensive, Windows-less laptop that you can use for doing your taxes while watching a movie has appeal. The performance isn't that important, so long as it is as responsive as the owner's phone.

[DauntingPear7]

People do see a high quality build laptop as a status symbol or a piece of luxury. Not having keyboard flex or general creaks really makes a laptop more enjoyable to use.

[ATMLOTTOBEER]

I kinda agree with you but consider that the perf on apple silicon is so much better that you’re probably still better off using the gimped tablet thing.

[999900000999]

The Neo is probably the best laptop for typical people.

I have an RTX 5070TI laptop. 95% I use it with Tumbleweed.

Unfortunately with work I don't have too much to play with LLM training and such.

The ultra poor person system is a used 200$ Thinkpad ( something about 2 years old) + your Linux distro of choice.

[jcelerier]

200$ ThinkPad...? The current best sellers on Amazon US are two 180$ brand new laptops. Intel Celeron N4020, 4Gb ram, 64 GB storage, 1366x768.

This is what the average computer user is using to try to run your apps and websites. And remember - a cheap laptop bought today is going to be in use for at least five years.

[bombcar]

The only things I recognize on that are the CPU brand name (there have been times the Celeron has been good bang for the buck), the RAM, and the storage (I guess and the resolution).

To me, all of those seem woefully underpowered, but $180 is $180...

[999900000999]

Used, on eBay you can find something very capable for 200 to 250.

Around 300$ it gets better, specifically if you're open to Dell and other brands.

[Teckla]

The Neo is probably the best laptop for typical people.

I don't think traditional desktop operating systems are best for most people. I believe a Chromebook, or an iPad with a keyboard, is best.

[bushbaba]

The neo is the Chromebook for education revolution. It’s cheap and better than 98%+ of windows laptops. I’d not be surprised to see further Mac penetration to the business sector

[TheRoque]

13 inch screen though.. it's really small

And with 8GB of RAM you are quite limited in the business sector as you say

[longislandguido]

I'm seeing a lot of "8GB ought to be enough for anybody" here over the last week....

[bombcar]

Steam report is a good thing to look at:

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=mac

For Mac, 30% are at 8GB, 43% at 16GB.

Windows has nearly nobody below 16GB (27%) and the biggest is 32GB (58%)

[bobbob1921]

I think it’s worth mentioning also- 8 GB ram on a Mac is not the same as 8 GB on a windows OS machine, given the poor state of windows as an OS as of the past few years.

[longislandguido]

I forgot about magical Mac memory.

Just keep it under one browser tab, bro.

[aurareturn]

It actually is magic Mac memory. No joke. 8GB on macOS is good enough for 80% of people.

[dymk]

I don’t see much “for anybody”, but I do see a lot of “for students / people who browse the web / word processing” which is still a pretty large set of people, and the Neo handles those workloads just fine

[longislandguido]

Literally two comments above mine in this discussion:

> The Neo is probably the best laptop for typical people.

I rest my case.

[dymk]

"students / web browsing / word processing" == typical people, but maybe that's my own biases

[dpark]

13” is not really that small. It’s a screen size many people choose.

The Neo is also not a play for businesses directly. It seems pretty clearly a play for students who will eventually enter the business world with their personal laptop preferences.

[Sohcahtoa82]

> The Neo is also not a play for businesses directly.

This really is the key point.

The Neo is not a work laptop (At least, not for engineers). It's a low-end laptop designed to compete with Chromebooks.

[aurareturn]

I spent one year using an M1 8GB Macbook Air as a professional developer during covid. The A18 Pro flies around the M1. You can definitely use this as a dev - especially when we're just prompting AI nowadays.

[tombert]

I bought my mother in law a Lenovo Thinkbook for Christmas; I didn't know that the Macbook Neo was coming else I might have waited for that.

Anyway, I installed Linux Mint on there. She has been using it every day and at least according to her there hasn't really been any jank (and I told her to call me any time if something breaks and I'll fix it).

At this point, I think Linux distros have gotten good enough to realistically start stealing users away from Windows. Linux Mint is easy to use, runs fine even on modest hardware, and doesn't push a bunch of shitty ads at you. I think there is an option for telemetry, but I also think that disabling it actually disables it.

Wine and Proton have gotten so good that outside of modern MS Office, most Windows things just run if you need it, but if you're not using MS Office heavily then you likely can get by with web apps and/or the Linux alternatives.

Maybe it really will be the Year of the Linux Desktop!

[seb1204]

Great, I did the same some years ago with xubutu. Did you set up some remote control software to log in if needed? Which one?

[tombert]

I actually have just used tmate to log into stuff since most things can be driven by command line.

We got her set up with Discord so she can screen share if she needs to.

[noisy_boy]

> I would never advise anyone buy a Microsoft Windows laptop these days — between the forced updates, the account and service-fee thirst, ads, and consumer unfriendly product release process (forced opt-in).

Buying a Windows laptop is a default even for a lot of Linux users because the alternatives are mostly too US-centric. In Asia, Framework only delivers to Taiwan - which is astounding given the technically advanced population of consumers in South East Asia. I'm not aware of System76 etc having any sales channels and after sales service setup in Asia either.

Until Asahi becomes a stable choice on Macs, if you want to run Linux on a laptop of a reputable brand, a Windows laptop is basically the only option (even though you may just wipe it). I kept mine dual boot not because I actually use Windows at home but because I paid for the bloody license, even though against my wishes.

[pjmlp]

Over here it is 800 euro for a 8 GB device, no thanks.

I would rather advise XBox, Nintendo or PlayStation for gaming.

[phendrenad2]

Buying a gaming laptop is like buying have a sports car. Sure, it looks nice, and you may even be able to wheel it around a bit. But it's not the ideal experience.

[emptyfile]

Meanwhile every MacOS thread is filled with people complaining how everything is broken and only getting worse.

Not that I'd know, I've probably seen <10 apple laptop devices in my life and never used one.

[p_j_w]

> Meanwhile every MacOS thread is filled with people complaining how everything is broken and only getting worse.

Having been using Macs for work and home use for the last few years, I have to say you’re right. And yet, in spite of that, I’d still rather use MacOS over Windows. The fans on my Mac never start spinning up as soon as the login screen appears or randomly when it’s sitting untouched on my desk, I never find MacOS to have rebooted in the middle of the night without asking me, it doesn’t constantly nag me to use iCloud more, and it never shows ads for Apple shit in Finder.

When I use MacOS, the worst I feel is the developers are a bit sloppy. When I use Windows, I feel like the developers actively hate me.

[alemanek]

Apple is in the process of fixing Tahoe which was a regression from Sequoia the previous release. Tahoe is decent with 26.4 though from what I am hearing. Either OS version is far far better than regular Windows 11 though.

Apple’s real differentiator is their silicon. M series chips are just incredibly good and you get a full workday out of them on battery.

The M1 Pro I still have at work is easily the best laptop I have ever used. For side projects I use an M4 air with maxed out RAM and it has no issues with anything I have thrown at it.

[lobf]

I'm also still on my M1 and I just don't see a need to upgrade. I've never owned a laptop this long without even considering getting a new one. It's still so fast, so cool, great screen, biometric unlocking... it's just incredible.