[rmah]

"Our economic system fundamentally chooses to reward such behavior". This is true, but what people seem to fail to grasp is that rewarding such behavior == buying the product. If people simply didn't buy it, they wouldn't do it. It's really that simple. It may be hard to not buy, of course. The alternatives may be worse, there may be downsides to not buying, etc. But nothing else will really be effective.

[nicoburns]

Sure, but there's a power disparity here. I think the clearest example is smart TVs where there have been examples of consumers buying a TV, and then having ads retroactively added to the product a year later. There's not much a consumer could to avoid that. It's our regulatory environment allowing that.

[bigstrat2003]

Yeah that is definitely the kind of thing we need regulation to address. In the market, the only power you have is to purchase or not. It ruins the free market's ability to function if the company you buy something from can remotely vandalize it after your purchase.

[rbanffy]

And this is even worse than with computers where you can, with some training, remove Windows and install a less user-hostile operating system. With a TV, while sometimes possible, most people are not sufficiently proficient in tge dark arts required to get rid of the native OS or to subvert it to your will against the wishes of its corporate master.

[gathered]

On top of that, the TV manufacturers subsidize the cost of their own TVs by shoving as much adware as possible and having it pay for the cost of the hardware. "Smart" TVs will almost always be cheaper than equivalent dumb TVs because of this reason, which forces many consumers' hands. I don't think there's any way to avoid this other than regulation, which likely won't happen because the system moves too slow to keep up.

[kelvinjps10]

the solution to this it's to just never enable wifi on the tv and just use it with your box, I for example use a cheap android tv box and my regular computer. The same with kindle I don't buy books from amazon, and just use calibre.

[windward]

Not to mention Windows 10 being sold as the last version

[j_w]

You don't need a TV. If there are only smart TVs then simply don't purchase one.

Most consumers are unwilling to take an option that they perceive as inconveniencing them more than getting screwed by the company inconveniences them.

[hnlmorg]

Telling people to just go without a TV is a little more than a “perceived” inconvenience.

The reality is that companies know they can get away with crap because they all get away with crap. And because they all do it, consumers are powerless.

This is why regulation isn’t a bad the thing that many HNers seem to recoil at. The real problem with regulation is when it’s defined by lobbyists rather than consumer groups. But even then, it’s really no different to the status quo where businesses are never held accountable.

[j_w]

If somebody "needs" a TV then they might "need" some hobbies.

A disturbing proportion of my family spend more than half of their free time watching television (typically while doom scrolling tiktok). They don't "need" TVs - they need to find interests.

[hnlmorg]

What people don’t need is someone dictating to them how they should relax after work.

Besides, it’s not like TVs are the only industry where consumer choice is an illusion. You see the same problem in a lot of sports (I used to fence and there was a great deal of pressure to buy equipment from one specific manufacturer which charged literally 4x the price for their gear).

And it’s not just hobbies either. I need a car for family duties and there are plenty of parts on it that can only be replaced by an authorised dealer.

[rbanffy]

> What people don’t need is someone dictating to them how they should relax after work.

Nobody dictates that. What we do is to suggest there might be more rewarding things to do with their time off than watching TV between the dopamine hits from TikTok

[j_w]

Replying to this comment since clearly the point is misunderstood.

The core part of what I wrote was "need." If you believe you "need" as in "can't go without" a TV, in this example, then you probably should consider whether or not you may be addicted to consuming television.

Do this as an exercise: Which of these statements indicates that somebody may have a a problem?

- I need a cigarette

- I need a beer

- I need a TV

- I need to eat

- I need some water

- I need to relax

The last three are clearly real needs. The first two are addictive. TV isn't a literal need, so if you find yourself NEEDING it, you may have a problem.

[acheron]

Evergreen

https://theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesn...

[j_w]

I have a TV though.

[Cpoll]

Sure, but you're just choosing hobbies for people. TVs are just one example here. If your hobby is 3D printing, you might've gotten screwed by Autodesk's subscription changes.

[nicoburns]

Yeah, and it's not just non-essentials. You could easily get screwed by your food production supply chain, or your housing provider.

[j_w]

TV can be a hobby, but hobbies typically have actual engagement from the hobbyist. There are a lot of people whom watching television/movies is a real hobby, and for those people you can tell that's the case.

In my experience for most people it's strictly a time wasting/filling/background noise activity. If you are spending a considerable amount of time watching television to time waste then you probably should try and find more fulfilling activities. This is not prescriptive of what those would be.

[claysmithr]

Sounds like they need God

[zahlman]

> Telling people to just go without a TV is a little more than a “perceived” inconvenience.

From personal experience, it really really is barely even an inconvenience. Especially in a world where YouTube exists and is accessible for free from a desktop computer. There's barely been anything good on TV for decades, and the older stuff probably only seemed good because of the difficulty of publishing any competition.

[hnlmorg]

It really depends on the individual. I barely watch any TV and have been like this for the 30+ years that I’ve been old enough to own a display. For a while, I did go fully in with media centres. Even running XBMC on an original Xbox. But I honestly just don’t really care for video content all that much regardless of how it’s delivered.

But I also know a hell of a lot of people who still massively prefer watching content the traditional way. As in, not just TV shows, but on a TV too. And I have no more right to tell them how to consume video content as they do to tell me how I should consume the stuff I want to read.

[rbanffy]

> And I have no more right to tell them how to consume video content as they do to tell me how I should consume the stuff I want to read.

I sometimes suggest they’d do themselves a favor if they stopped watching Fox News and reality TV, that life is much better without that.

[listenallyall]

Lol, your position is, don't watch tv, just watch YouTube. That's not really a radical shift.

Fine if it works for you, but TV has plenty of things going for it... big screens, watch from 10 ft away on a couch, watch with other people, regular schedule (i.e. Jeopardy on the same time every day), live sports, local news, shows with generally high production values. But probably most importantly, passivity - yes that is a feature.

[rbanffy]

> Telling people to just go without a TV is a little more than a “perceived” inconvenience.

The TV I have has never had an antenna cable plugged, or an internet connection. It’s, from day one, been a large HDMI monitor to an Apple TV, a Nintendo Switch and a C64 Maxi with some other devices plugged in from time to time.

It IS possible to ignore the TV’s software most of the time (mine, luckily, isn’t intrusive at all) and use it as a conduit for a much cheaper and easily replaced (or hacked) device.

I remember how surprised the engineers at [manufacturer redacted] were when I told them they had everything needed to turn their TVs into thin clients and meeting room monitors right into the Linux firmware just a compile away. I’d totally love a 35” X terminal in 2008 with Ethernet and a couple USB ports.

[hnlmorg]

Yes, we’ve all done that. I mentioned earlier about how I used XBMC on an original Xbox.

But we aren’t normal people. Normal people wouldn’t even know how to set up a media centre. And the Nintendo Switch famously has next to no video streaming platforms on it.

[rbanffy]

> But we aren’t normal people

It's both a blessing and a curse.

[drnick1]

The trick is to use the TV as a monitor and not connect it to the Internet.

[rbanffy]

I remember some brand was caught connecting to nearby TVs of the same brand to send telemetry to their corporate masters through the neighbour’s internet connected TV. Not sure how far they went with downloading new firmware.

[j_w]

This is what I do with the smart TV that I was given after a relative was tired of it freezing up/apps crashing. Haven't had any issues.

[Eisenstein]

Please make a list of things you don't need so that in case of any issues with the company or system that allows access to them you will know to just stop using them.

[fluoridation]

The list is longer than you'd probably think. Keeping a principled stance might involve taking on some inconvenience, which could be a problem for some people.

[j_w]

I've dropped many things in the past because of issues with the company/service. Amazon Prime, every single streaming service, I've been car free for over 3 years, and there are more.

Are there some things I would struggle with if suddenly there were issues? Sure. I had to significantly increase my internet spend because of the (much) cheaper option going to complete shit. I require the internet for my career but unless the entire world collapses I doubt I'll run into any true blocker that would prevent me from using it for work.

Most people are just afraid to change their lives substantively. I am too, but I'm also willing to do it for causes I believe in.

[Eisenstein]

I think you underestimate the meaning of the word 'inconvenience'. Hot water is a convenience.

My point is that your list is one list which you are making, but someone else could look at your life and make a different list. Your argument only goes so far you can extend into your own life. If you really cared about something's place in your life, you wouldn't classify it as a convenience, so you are conveniently applying your own classifications to other people's lives, which you don't have a right to do.

This is why we have democratic institutions and authority -- to make these limits about what is tolerable and intolerable -- not what people's conveniences are.

[j_w]

Your original reply was:

> Please make a list of things you don't need so that in case of any issues with the company or system that allows access to them you will know to just stop using them.

If you didn't expect me to be introspective to MYSELF then why even bother asking? Of course my list is personal.

While it is personal, it also can apply to others. The reality is that most people are completely unwilling to inconvenience themselves.

Go without hot water? Okay, sure. I take cold showers, they are better for your skin. I wash my clothes with cold water. The only thing I use hot water for is dishes. I think that might be a bit weird, but I think dish soap is anti bacterial so it's probably not an issue? Now you can reply to this saying: "well YOU can do that but other people will feel differently." No shit. But most of the world goes without hot water so who cares.

> If you really cared about something's place in your life, you wouldn't classify it as a convenience, so you are conveniently applying your own classifications to other people's lives, which you don't have a right to do.

Most people don't actually care about TV in their life - they just have never thought for a minute to consider the reality of not having one.

> This is why we have democratic institutions and authority -- to make these limits about what is tolerable and intolerable -- not what people's conveniences are.

Not sure how this is relevant. I'm all for consumer protection. But the most apt way to protect yourself is to vote: first for politicians, and then with your wallet.

[LtWorf]

Go to a shop and try to find a non smart tv.

[kortilla]

“You don’t need a TV”

[aylmao]

Do people really have a choice though? Many people don't choose what OS they use for work, and even when one can pick, the environment we exist in is one where being less productive is often hard to afford.

Another instance where companies can have more leverage than consumers is gaming. Console exclusives are a thing because they work; not giving consumers the option to play Pokemon on anything but the Nintendo Switch drives switch sales. Microsoft is better off working with other gaming companies to ensure Windows keeps being dominant, than building an OS to gamer's preferences.

I think time has proven many times that consumers aren't always good regulators for the market. The market is best regulated by organized entities.

[bigfatkitten]

Not even companies have a choice, for the most part. Their choice of operating system is dictated by the applications they need to run, and only the smallest and most unsophisticated businesses can generally get away with nothing but a web browser.

There is a whole ecosystem that needs to move before they can move.

[something765478]

> Many people don't choose what OS they use for work, and even when one can pick, the environment we exist in is one where being less productive is often hard to afford.

Sure, but I also think that a lot of the issues with Windows 11 don't really matter much if its just used as a work OS. For example, I refuse to upgrade my home PC to 11, because I don't want Microsoft to spy on me; however, when I am using my work computer, I know that I am already being spied upon, so that's not a concern for me.

[megaman821]

iPhone adoption in the enterprise wasn't because of IT. When consumer preference is strong things tend to happen.

[adiabatichottub]

If people stopped buying cigarettes there would be no tobacco industry. But the true cost of smoking is not something that the smoker realizes until it's already too late. That's why we had to have huge public health campaigns to deter people from smoking, because the long-term effects aren't obvious when you're just stopping in at the corner store. We all live in our own little bubbles and it's often difficult to see how our actions, individual and collective, shape the world around us.

[pinewurst]

So does North Korea's. This is Goodhart's law in action - the metastasis of PM culture rewarding "engagement".

[rawgabbit]

Consumers can make choices only if it is clear what the options are. In many cases, Microsoft hides behind weasel or made up words. And it takes a security researcher to peel back the layers of their bullshit.