[whstl]

> The master Render() function draws all of the graphics according to the current state

What you are describing is exactly what GP complained about: "state as something distinct from both the UI and the data source".

React can be 100% stateless, functional, and have the state live somewhere else. You just need to apply the same limitations as your model: components should be simple and not store data in themselves.

This is why people came up with things like Flux/Redux/Reducers/Immutability, to handle this in a standardized way, but nothing is necessary.

[cluckindan]

>components should be simple and not store data in themselves.

That is a ”controlled component” model which is bad for interactivity, especially text inputs.

If every keypress triggers a state change and rerender, the UI will be slow and things like focus management become complex issues.

Without a rerender, it must now use a reactive binding to update the field value.

If you don’t want to update state on every keypress, your component must be uncontrolled, store its state internally (in the DOM) and update it to a parent store e.g. when the user stops typing (debounced) or moves focus out of the field. These are not trivial things either, and as a result, components get more boilerplate to handle the UX complexity. And of course, there are now UX pitfalls.

Indeed, these are reasons why reactive patterns exist. Now, if they just managed to abstract away the tedium.

[Izkata]

I don't know what people generally recommend now, but for a long time the best practices with organizing React components had them connected to the store midway down the tree or higher, which definitely would have contributed to the UI slowness since it would rerender everything below that on each update. Push the store access down as far into the leaves as possible and you won't get anything noticeable, even though it is still doing more work than just accessing the DOM state as needed.

Also, focus management isn't really a thing in React, the vdom diffing means DOM nodes are updated instead of replaced so focus isn't lost or changed unexpectedly. There used to be a demo on the React homepage showing this, since the idea was very new to most people at the time - everything popular before it was just rendering template fragments to replace nodes and did have this problem.

[cluckindan]

Focus management is absolutely a thing in React if you plan to be ADA or WCAG compliant, even if it’s not needed for text inputs.

[codethief]

> React can be 100% stateless, functional, and have the state live somewhere else. You just need to apply the same limitations as your model: components should be simple and not store data in themselves.

"just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Where do you store "pure" GUI state (button state, is expandable expanded, …)? Do you really want to setup Redux for this? (And no, the DOM is not an option in non-trivial cases.)

[Jenk]

Might be naive, but this has always been a concern of the view-model for me. Every GUI change results in a VM change via event/command. The VM becomes gospel for UI state which means reducers are much simpler, and my actual model doesn't care if it is indeed a button, expando, radio button or whatever else.

[codethief]

Isn't React pretty much a model-view-viewmodel architecture?

[Jenk]

Yes but it is easy to abuse/misuse IME, in that I think it requires one to maintain your own sense of discipline for the principle separation rather than the library/framework guide you into it. The threshold between UI and state management is comically easy to confuse.

Not dismissing it, mind, that inherent guidance is not something that is easy to achieve and I much prefer working with the likes of React than without.

[whstl]

I'm not defending this model anywhere. I'm just stating that React can do what applfanboysbgon suggested: "As a game developer working in my own engine, UI is unbelievably straight-forward: [...]"