[alexb_]

Most people want a computer that works with their software. No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution. Especially because nearly everyone has some niche thing they like, some 5% that isn't covered by the FOSS solutions, that only a niche Windows program can actually do correctly.

And that doesn't even get into gaming.

[fainpul]

Then at least let the company that makes your niche software know that you want a Linux version of it, even if you don't use Linux (yet). We need to solve this chicken / egg problem. Nobody wants to use Windows, they want to use some specific application. If most software is available on Linux too, then consumers can actually choose their OS.

[sigmoid10]

Most software is already available on Linux. I've successfully run Linux in corporate jobs where everything runs on the MS/AD/Azure stack. The issue is not that you can't do it, the issue is that you have to spend extra work at every corner to get things running, because unlike Windows Linux doesn't take your hand and hide all the nasty bits from you, while it tries to juggle a million cases in the background. Windows is really great at that - until it breaks. Then you're usually screwed. Like, if the problem is close to the kernel, you can't even fix it theoretically. Best you can do is wait for an official MS patch. On Linux things break more often, but you can usually fix them without having to resort to extreme measures. It's a fundamentally different usage philosophy that plays very hard into the strengths of techies. So non-technical users will always shy away from Linux.

[sombragris]

> the issue is not that you can't do it, the issue is that you have to spend extra work at every corner to get things running, because unlike Windows Linux doesn't take your hand and hide all the nasty bits from you, while it tries to juggle a million cases in the background.

You may have to spend extra work to get things running; but once it's done, it runs forever without a hitch.

I know, I use Slackware. It's regarded as a very technical distribution and some manual configuration is expected but once it's done, it's done. I have configs from > 20 years ago that I still use without a hiccup.

[sigmoid10]

>but once it's done, it runs forever without a hitch.

Yeah... no. If you're dealing with changing systems, you'll need continued support from maintainers. And there's a lot of stuff out there in the business world that is commonly used and breaks all the time. Stuff will break. If not, it is not getting updated. In that case I'd be more worried about security than compatibility.

[sombragris]

Yeah... yes. There are systems which are continuously maintained but don't break all the time. Yes, stuff will break but this is way less common in Linux.

Claws-mail has all my email for over 15 years. My inbox is several gigabytes in size, which claws handles flawlessly. And the software is continuously maintained. I'm using version 4.4.0 now, which was released 16 days ago on March 9.

So... yes.

[sigmoid10]

Turns out email clients are quite simple (mostly because the protocol is ancient) and also something everyone in every company uses. But many OSS clients still die eventually. And once you get into the actual business application world, you're in for a world of pain on Linux. Especially if you go near AD/Azure/Entra. Heck, the fact there is not even a stable name for this mess of a software suite tells you enough. And yet every big company relies on it.

[lstodd]

I don't know what are these nasty bits windows is supposedly hiding, or what exactly breaks more often on Linux. For me it's exact opposite: my linux just never breaks. I don't do anything special, just plug in the hdd into new box bought when old gets too slow for new tasks, continue as nothing happened.

Uptimes of half a year are not uncommon, the record so far is 400+ days. I just don't shut it down unless there's a serious kernel or hardware upgrade.

It just works, non-kernel updates, stuff being plugged/unplugged, couple times I swapped sata hdds without turning off power (which is simple, they are hotplug by design, just don't drop the screws onto motherboard and don't forget to unmount+detach first).

Now, when I used to and test some cross-builds for windows (win7-win10 era), I had another dedicated windows machine for that. And even though I tried to make it as stable as possible, it was a brittle piece of junk, in comparison.

So in my experience, yes, linux is fundamentally different usage philosophy: you don't need to think about what crap Microsoft will break your workflow with next Tuesday.

[aleph_minus_one]

> Then at least let the company that makes your niche software know that you want a Linux version of it, even if you don't use Linux (yet). We need to solve this chicken / egg problem.

To solve the chicken/egg problem, the GNU/Linux distributions should generate some very (in particular binary) stable interface for writing applications (including GUI applications) on GNU/Linux - like WinAPI on Windows. With "stable" I mean "stable for at least 20-25 years". This interface must, of course, work on all widespread GNU/Linux distributions.

[nananana9]

Even if we don't agree on a userspace ABI, this is still fine-ish, as long as you can statically link everything you need. Unfortunately the nerds maintaining the core libraries REALLY don't want you to do that, and the answer to "how do I build a portable Linux GUI program" goes more or less like:

"Build musl libc statically, set up a toolchain to use it, build libc++ for that toolchain, get libwayland, link that statically (which their build scripts don't support, roll your own), get xcb,libxau,libxwhatever and build those statically as well, and implement TWO platform layers, dynamically checking for wayland support. There's like 5 different ways to set your window icon. Yes, you need to implement all of them. Now for loading the graphics API......."

On Windows it's a call to RegisterClassW followed by CreateWindowW.

[swiftcoder]

It's an old joke, but it's also accurate in this case - isn't what you are asking for just WINE?

[aleph_minus_one]

> isn't what you are asking for just WINE

An operating system is a style of thinking about your work. WINE is a way to get Windows applications to run (by now run decently) under GNU/Linux. These Windows applications are nevertheless foreign bodies in the whole kind of thinking which GNU/Linux is built around.

[bombcar]

The joke is that the most stable Linux API for applications is ... WIN32 via WINE.

It's sad because it's true.

[sznio]

I think that eventually, Win32/WoW64 will be the stable common API for Linux programs - or at least games. I won't be surprised if it outlasts Windows.

[krater23]

I don't want windows or linux, I want a OS where I don't notice that it's there. When I have to think about my OS, then the OS has a flaw. And currently nor Windows or Linux can deliver that anymore. Windows 7 after some customizations and Windows XP had this, but M$ destroyed it. Linux never had this and I don't expect that this will come in the future.

[tasuki]

> I want a OS where I don't notice that it's there.

I guess you want a Mac. That's fine.

I value freedom and things not mysteriously breaking and functionality not disappearing, and am quite happy investing a the time and knowledge upfront, so I use Linux.

And then there are people who want to have a system which works out of the box initially and who don't want to learn anything and don't mind it breaking later, and they choose Windows.

To each their own.

[Copernicron]

> I guess you want a Mac. That's fine.

Have you seen liquid glass? "Don't notice it's there" does not at all apply to the latest UI changes. Everything is bouncing and jumping and sliding in ways that deliberately call attention to itself. MacOS does not stay out of the way anymore.

[alexb_]

Company? Most of the time this stuff is years (sometimes DECADES) old. That's why it doesn't work on Linux in the first place.

[Ragnarork]

> nearly everyone has some niche thing they like, some 5% that isn't covered by the FOSS

I'm interested in where that estimate + number are coming from. And I'd like to point out that I don't nearly see as many people pushing back against say MacOS for "not being Windows", despite the fact that the same issue would be there. I wonder why Linux gets special treatment in that regards, when modern distros make usage very accessible.

> And that doesn't even get into gaming.

Gaming on Linux works very well. And if something doesn't, it's usually by choice (e.g. BattleEye customers not enabling it on Linux) or by sheer incompetence / malevolence (e.g. EA Games and their shitty EA App that breaks often even on Windows, and even worse on Linux in a Wine environment).

[chocochunks]

Linux unfortunately needs to be a Windows that's better than Windows to a lot of people unfortunately. It must support all their hardware and software perfectly and can never have any issues, only then will it be an accepted alternative. Probably because it's free and they want it to work on their existing setup.

Mac users paid money for their choice, so ironically they are more forgiven for the inability to run some Office VBA macros, work with that random MST dual display dongle or whatever. They rationalize their expensive purchase as a good decision and that it's good enough and possible to solve issues encountered like spending 5 times as much on Thunderbolt dock to do what the $30 MST dongle did or learn some entirely new $10 app to do what they did on Windows with something else.

[carlosjobim]

MacOS has the software people need, hence why there's not that same push back.

Just as nobody is pushing back against Linux when it comes to server software, or pushing back against PlayStation when it comes to games.

[happymellon]

> No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution

Hard disagree. Not that it has to be FOSS, but you have a product that is predatory towards you and you refuse to change your ways.

Leaving an abusive relationship is hard, but sometimes you have to do it.

[pc86]

> you have a product that is predatory towards you and you refuse to change your ways.

And honestly it seems like you refuse to learn even the smallest bit about human nature.

Very, very few people want to "learn" how to use their computer. Walk into a room of 100 graphic designers who have spend the last 20 years using Photoshop exclusively and put GIMP in front of them and and at least 98 of them are going to say what the hell is wrong with you, they have work to do, take this uncanny valley garbage and get out of here.

I'm typing this on a System76 laptop right now but I understand expecting people to use Linux writ large is ridiculous.

[prathamtharwani]

Everybody "learns" how to use a computer. It's just a question of what they learn first.

[falcor84]

I would propose a new law of interaction design: Whenever something is promoted as a tool that you wouldn't need to learn, then it's actually designed to use you, and you are the tool.

[noisy_boy]

I mean I kinda agree on what you are saying but then it logically follows that if you don't want to try out alternatives, don't want to push your government to enact better laws, don't want to spend time taking them to small claims court - basically don't want to do anything but suffer - then just suffer.

[butlike]

I don't know how to better explain this, but as I get older I find I just have less energy to address all the things. My worldview gets larger and my energy levels become less and eventually I need to just 'stop' progressing in a certain activity. It could be re-learning the TV's remote control like my grandparents, or it could be re-learning how to drive with an EV touchscreen on modern cars, or it could be re-learning an operating system that just presents a mountain where you just say: "I can't do it this time."

[Dylan16807]

Sure, if you ignore all the time you're wasting on the status quo. You are still using energy on all the problems of the existing system.

For a remote or a car there is no benefit to changing. For Windows there is.

[butlike]

I feel like that sentiment is really in the eyes of the beholder. You could argue as long as Windows still accepts and runs .exes, I'm good to go with gaming. But, that excludes all of the benefits of changing.

Idk, it's more of a philosophical perspective at this point. I see where you're coming from.

[pc86]

The vast majority of people do not test out alternatives to things they just need to use for work, they don't lobby their government even informally for different laws, have never gone to small claims court (or even been in a court room when it's in session). These are all minority "activist" activities for lack of a better word.

The tin foil hat interpretation of this is that it is all by design, by whatever cabal runs everything, to subjugate the masses and control them directly or indirectly. The generous interpretation is closer to an extreme version of Sturgeon's Law[0] where this is just a natural, even inevitable, byproduct of most things being garbage. Like most things the truth is almost certainly somewhere in the middle.

[0] "90% of everything is [crud/crap/shit]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law

[mapontosevenths]

> Very, very few people want to "learn" how to use their computer.

I see this point being missed over and over again in this thread. To people like you and I the computer is often the entire point. To normal people it's a tool. It exists to get the job done so they can move onto something else.

The solution that requires the least effort is objectively the best solution. Most of the time that still means Windows, and it won't change until the required level of effort changes.

[happymellon]

If all the crap that people suffer through, and make YouTube channels dedicated to about how much Windows is hell, is not enough to get them to look elsewhere then "fixing" other operating systems won't get them to look.

They aren't looking and they aren't interested in looking. At this point they have no one else to blame.

[sznio]

>No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution.

It is a solution. Once you do it, your problem is solved, that makes it the solution. If you aren't willing to go with that, you can stay with Windows and just accept the constant abuse.

As for gaming, I've been on Linux for two years now and I haven't had a single game not work.

[maerF0x0]

And as for a better solution, Teach kids. Once I'm an ornery PTA parent I'm going to push for programming and *nix of some sort to be taught to the school, even if I have to volunteer to do it myself.

[microtonal]

Well acktshually, gaming is a really good example. Valve did a lot of good with Proton to the point that a lot of games work and work well.

Perhaps ironically, Wine may be the best stable API on Linux. I'd like to see a concerted and well-funded effort to make Wine run certain Windows applications well. We might not be able to replace the Adobe Suite short-term by a FOSS alternative for most of its users, but we might be able to get Wine to run the Adobe Suite, Affinity Suite, and whatnot well enough to make it possible to switch and keep running these applications.

[NonHyloMorph]

Yes. please. All that Ai Coding Power that's presumably around.. it should get easier, no?

[iugtmkbdfil834]

<< No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution.

It actually is. It may not be the best solution, but it absolutely is one of available solutions. = Not being able to ( or wiling to ) learn ( and adjust ) as needed is part of the reason we are here.

I am not being nitpicky here. Reasonable people don't hope things will change; instead, they change things they can.

[Forgeties79]

Good news re: gaming is with SteamOS/Bazzite gaming on Linux is finally near-turnkey. Only thing I had to adjust on my bazzite computer was zram, otherwise I’ve never had to open the terminal (unless I wanted to). Expedition 33 ran perfectly day 1.

I do agree with your larger point though. It’s the same reason everybody doesn’t change the oil in their car on their own or cook their food every night over ordering out. Only it goes even further because by this point most people expect a computer to just do what it’s supposed to do (or they think it’s supposed to do) the first time they try. I can’t imagine asking my parents to start inputting terminal commands. Even just the process of something like running etcher and prepping a usb drive to install linux is a whole thing.

[autoexec]

> Most people want a computer that works with their software.

I suspect that most people don't run much software at all outside of their web browser and wouldn't notice any difference between using chrome in windows and using chrome in linux. Gaming is not the barrier it used to be either.

[jl6]

Agreed. Default Ubuntu is pretty much feature complete for mainstream users, as long as they don’t have to install it themselves.

[randoadmin]

Well, considering that you can run almost anything (excluding games and specialized graphics software) with 99.99999% guaranteed result via WinApps, I don't see what the issue is for a hypothetical member of the majority population.

It's not 2016 anymore, you don't have to switch to LibreOffice if you need an office suite of apps.

That obviously would be preferable, but if you're an avid Microsoft ecosystem user, just use WinApps. It's simple enough to the point that a child could use it.

[bonoboTP]

What percentage of MS Office user can, in your estimation, complete the steps as described in this readme?

https://github.com/winapps-org/winapps

[alexb_]

Even skipping the first step (which requires a second readme) the next step involves opening a terminal. Instant fail. The entire point of an operating system is to make computers usable without knowing how they work, what a file is, what a command is, or having to look up anything. If something needs to be done, it needs a GUI.

Linux is an important operating system, but anyone under the delusion that it is desktop ready right now needs to actually watch someone use it. I say this not because I hate linux, but because I love it. I want someone to make it usable for a desktop, and people claiming that it is usable right now are not helping that.

[fwip]

I may be showing my grey hair here, but that's emphatically not the point of an operating system.

[falcor84]

I disagree with the grandparent too, but still would argue that an OS's goal is to allow its users to manage their applications and work processes rather than their computer.

It's a hard question to figure out what's the proper level of abstraction for this is. And while I strongly resisted it originally, I am becoming more open to the argument that many people don't need to "know" what a file is, to benefit from their computers - that as long as they can "save" their work, and "send" it from one app to another, they'd be able to get all the productivity that they are looking for.

[harvey9]

It should be possible to get creative and business work done on a computer while knowing almost nothing about an os but I use Windows at work and the situation with the file save dialogue in office is a farce. I can't imagine how confusing it is for someone who has no conception of what a file is.

[hdb2]

I had commented this above, but the OS should be flexible enough to do whatever the user needs it to do. "What it needs to do" is pretty broad, but I think that's the point.

[mattkevan]

There’s a big difference between working on a computer and working with a computer.

The people doing the former use computers for ‘real work’. They are using a computer as an end in itself, care about operating systems and have strong opinions about systemd. The people doing the latter couldn’t give two shits about any of that and just want to get their presentation finished on time.

Problem is, both sets of people have to use the same machines. It’s also why software like GIMP will never become widely adopted in professional environments because it’s designed for a completely different userbase.

[hdb2]

> Even skipping the first step (which requires a second readme) the next step involves opening a terminal. Instant fail. The entire point of an operating system is to make computers usable without knowing how they work, what a file is, what a command is, or having to look up anything. If something needs to be done, it needs a GUI.

I strongly disagree with this; I believe that an OS should be whatever the user needs it to be. In my case, I am a power user that loves the command line, and while I agree that I may not represent the majority of users, I do not care for your assertion that my way of doing things is somehow invalid.

[hootz]

I agree that most users won't be able to follow Winapps' guide, but "The entire point of an operating system is to make computers usable without knowing how they work" is just false. That is the point of an OS for computer illiterates, not the "entire point of an operating system".

[lynx97]

Arguably, the vast majority of users are "computer illiterates", and an OS should cater to the majority. So in a sense, OP has a point.

[bonoboTP]

I agree on the facts but I think the gatekeeping effect is probably helpful for the current users.

If we had a giant influx of computing illiterate people, the platform would enshittify. They would move towards android-type lock downs and user hostile stuff. More and more binary-only proprietary software, they might fork systemd etc and make sure that the proprietary binaries only run under certain unmodified setups etc. Of course there would be escape routes to various other, nonpopular distros, so the skilled people would be fine again, but there would be a barrier again.

I think this is fundamental. Once the general public starts entering an arena, it won't stay the same. Eternal September etc.

[falcor84]

I know it's a bit ironic given TFA's focus on shoving Copilot and Recall down users' throats, but I really do believe that an OS-level AI agent could solve these usability issues. We need to solve a lot of trust issues, but the capabilities are essentially already there for a non-technical user to tell a Samantha-like OS AI "please get this working", and it will.

[pixelmelt]

I've already been doing this haha, got Claude to install VR mods into a game that most certainly should not have been working with VR mods on linux

[bmn__]

That's barking up the wrong tree. Github shows instructions for software developers. A normal user would just install Winapps from package manager, like with all the other Linux software.

Your critique should be channelled into a productive direction and point the finger at the maintainers why this is not packaged yet. https://repology.org/projects/?search=winapps https://pkgs.org/search/?q=winapps

[exceptione]

Cool. Windows can't do 99% of the things I and anyone not grasping at straws can do with Linux.

It is getting tiring, I don't say Linux is perfect, but KDE has been better than Windows for years, Linux doesn't bit rot like an average Windows install and Linux is in practice surprisingly more stable, but no-no-no, Linux can't be this time again. Quick... ehm "there is a piece of software that only works on Windows". Have you ever thought the reverse holds too, but times 1000?

If you call yourself an IT-professional, you only run spyware.exe in a vm or in a box with all networking gear ripped out and you don't making stupid excuses.

[kakacik]

No need for such childish reaction, dismissing other's viewpoints achieves nothing for your side of arguments, at least nothing good and one of the reasons some skilled folks won't migrate, we have enough toxic communities elsewhere.

Also quite a few inaccuracies - what the heck is 'bit rot' on windows? I had 1 same Windows 10 install running on desktop for 8 years as primary personal PC and installed tons of software and games, both official and... some other types. 0 issues.

On laptop whole lifetime with original install is the default for everybody I know, for me 6-7 years (simply the length of ownership). We don't talk about Windows 95 or ME era here where frequent installs were basically mandatory and a well-practiced chore.

[vel0city]

> I had 1 same Windows 10 install running on desktop for 8 years as primary personal PC

I actually have a desktop still running that got a launch party host Windows 7 Steve Ballmer edition install that's just been upgraded as time has gone on. Very much a Ship of Theseus machine but technically only ever migrated the OS image around, never reinstalled. That's 17 years of a Windows install so far, and its perfectly fine. That one install has made it through multiple motherboards and OS upgrades. It'll end up dying and being replaced once I get too uncomfortable with 10 EoL, this board is still useful to me but it doesn't have a TPM so Windows is dead to this machine.

[jjkaczor]

Historically I wouldn't refer to it as "bit rot", but generally "registry bloat" with a combination older, no longer used .DLL's hanging around, rather than being removed on software uninstallation or upgrade.

In the past a good "registry cleaner" would help - but those are no longer reliable with newer versions of Windows - there are many virtual entries that get cleaned-up by overly aggressive utilities.

[twilo]

Linux is pretty awful at a lot of things …

[nobleach]

As a VERY long-time Linux user, I agree. Multi-monitor setups, where you can unplug the monitor and have your windows gather back onto your laptop screen requires WAY too much configuration. Having your audio switch back to internal laptop speakers requires homebrewing a script. On my 2020 Dell XPS, I still haven't figured out how to enable the subwoofers - so I'm stuck with ThinkPad quality audio. I have 3 ThinkPads (one with straight ArchLinux, 2 with CachyOS) and there's always some little piece I'm annoyed with. The X1C has good battery life, the T480 and P14s are meh. I JUST bought my first HiDPI Lenovo laptop this weekend. Getting that to be a decent tradeoff between readable text and mongo-duplo-massive UI has been "fun". (Yoga 15.3" Aura edition - I really like it) But running apps in Wine is darn near impossible - the text is for ants!

All of these issues go away with Mac and Windows. I'm not giving up on Linux, I'm just a realist.

[akdev1l]

>On my 2020 Dell XPS, I still haven't figured out how to enable the subwoofers

If I remember correctly dell never provided drivers/firwmare/docs upstream to drive the subwoofer. ref: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=215233

[SAI_Peregrinus]

Not even that! Most people want a computer that lets them get the tasks they want to do done, in the way that uses the lowest effort.

If they want to edit a photo, and they're used to Photoshop, then Photoshop will be lower effort than a competitor just as Photoshop is lower effort than darkroom editing film. Competitors have to be lower effort or offer significantly better features than incumbents. Product cost is a part of the effort needed to use that product, but far from the entire thing.

[cardanome]

For better or worse, well mostly worse, most of the software people use these days is either directly running in the browser or is electron based so running perfectly fine on Linux.

Gaming on Linux is a mostly solved issue for anyone that doesn't do competitive multiplayer gaming. If a game isn't using some root kit level anti-cheat or copyright protection, it is going to run just fine. Same with running most other software.

The only part where Linux is sucks is for certain creatives fields. If you need Adobe products you are out of luck. Video editing well you use Da Vinci or free software. There are some good DAWS but no Ableton.

Yes, you have to compromise but Linux is definitely getting there. Not everything runs on Mac either and people cope just fine.

[gambiting]

>>for anyone that doesn't do competitive multiplayer gaming

Turns out, a lot of people do exactly that. Hundreds of millions of people play CoD, Fortnite, Battlefield, Apex and many many other games which won't work on Linux at all.

I think the state of gaming on Linux is absolutely incredible - what used to be a very esotheric and "roll of the dice" process 20 years ago now is extremely simple and it mostly just works. But when I play games with friends every week it's almost never a game that would work on Linux.

[NonHyloMorph]

-Affinity instead of adobe is just fine imho. Gimp is not. -Rhino3D/Grasshopper

Especially Affinity imho. A lot of the people studying graphics design in the last 3 years or so, that I know of, saw the benefit of not paying for an Adobe subscription.

[4k93n2]

is Bitwig not as good as Ableton? ive never used Ableton so i wouldnt know, but Bitwig seems crazy good to me, especially compared to other DAWs on linux like Ardour or Reaper

[NonHyloMorph]

If you already have an ableton license the thought of paying the same amount again sucks. Reaper is nice for all things recording though

[lynx97]

> And that doesn't even get into gaming.

Or Accessibility, which the Linux desktop is notoriously bad with, since, what, 20 years. The constant push to rewrite things typically forgets making Accessibility a priority, for the sake of "progress".

[cesarb]

> Most people want a computer that works with their software. No, "learn the FOSS version" is not a solution.

Why is that argument always applied against Linux, and never against for instance macOS, which also can't run Windows software?

[bachmeier]

> Why is that argument always applied against Linux, and never against for instance macOS, which also can't run Windows software?

There's a certain type of technical user that gets joy from coming up with arguments, good, bad, or just pulled out of their butt, explaining why people can't use Linux. I'm not going to spend my day trying to understand people's unusual preferences.

[surgical_fire]

Most games nowadays run perfectly fine on Linux.

[pjmlp]

Windows games you mean.

[wtetzner]

Some of which run better on Linux than Windows.

[pjmlp]

They might for whatever reason, however without Windows they would not have existed in first place.

[wtetzner]

I'm not sure I understand what your point is...

Without Windows they probably would have been written for whatever else was most popular instead.

[ekaryotic]

or run without an OS like an arcade or console.