[CamperBob2]

I just want what I've been asking for: someone to explain to me why, in 2026, humans still need to be involved in the real-time aspects of ATC.

"Because it's always been done that way, and that's what the regulations say," will not be accepted, at least not by me.

(Really, my question is more like why humans will still be needed in the loop in 2036. If we started automating ATC today, that's probably how long it would take to cut over to the new system.)

[thomascountz]

You have made a claim.

   That... sounds like a simple problem.

I have made a counter-argument.

   If you ignore the incumbency, the regulations, the training requirements, the retrofitting, the verification, the international coordination, and the existing unfathomably reliable systems built out of past tragedies, then sure, it’s "simple". But then, if you're ignoring those things, you’re not really solving the problem, are you?

You retorted.

   Those are excuses and encumbrances, not reasons.

I rebutted.

   Ok. You have shared that what some say are reasons, you say are excuses... I maintain that this is not a simple problem.

Which you ignored to make a new claim against a straw man.

    I just want what I've been asking for: someone to explain to me why, in 2026, humans still need to be involved in the real-time aspects of ATC.

That is what is not acceptable. You cannot simply abandon your original claim because it has been plainly pointed out that it is incorrect. You were not simply asking for someone to explain why humans need to be involved in real-time aspects of ATC. That is a wholly different question! You claimed this problem was simple, and it has been explained to you why it is not. Please reason about your argument more soundly.

On the heels of tragedy, you reasoned this could've been avoided simply. We are all ears. And yet, at no point did you demonstrate any understanding of the problem containing real world constraints, and instead demand that it be explained to you how the world works and how systems are implemented.

If you want to discuss an idealized system in a vacuum, then say as much; I would find that interesting. But do not demand to be given an explanation when you do not understand—and cannot accept—why things are the way they are.

Let me summarize it like this: you may very well have the best solution in the world, but if it doesn't include a strategy for how to share it (let alone implement it), then I maintain you do not understand the problem and therefore cannot claim it is simple.

[CamperBob2]

Let me summarize it like this: you may very well have the best solution in the world

I have no solution at all, for the 35th time.

This conversation is over; it's clear I'm not going to get what I asked for. If someone could answer my question, they would have by now, rather than throwing one smoke bomb after another.

[estearum]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47492768

Can you please explain how specifically you imagine a scenario like this getting automated?

[CamperBob2]

No, that's not how this works. You tell me why it can't or shouldn't be automated.

"Design an automated ATC system" isn't a valid answer to "Why can't ATC be automated?"

[wk_end]

Er, I sort of do think that's how it works? The ultimate rebuttal to "you can't do X" is to actually do X. Until you do that I think that ultimately the burden of proof falls on you. It can be very easy to imagine certain tasks and systems can be automated - especially when you aren't actively involved in those tasks and systems and are unfamiliar with their intricacies.

[estearum]

You: why don't we have a universal cancer vaccine?

Me: [ insert specific example of currently intractable problem ]

You: sounds like an excuse

Me: okay... can you explain how it could work?

You: THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS

okay

[CamperBob2]

More like:

Me: Why don't we use radiation to treat cancer?

You: Radiation is dangerous

Me: Sounds like an excuse

You: OK, design a medical-grade synchrotron

Me: That's not how this works

You: LOL pwned

...insert specific example of currently intractable problem...

What makes the problem intractable? We can now do both voice recognition and synthesis at human levels, and any video game programmer from the 1980s can keep some objects from running into each other.

When an emergency is declared, keep the other objects in a holding pattern and give the affected object permission to land. Then roll the fire trucks. Preferably not routing both the trucks and another aircraft onto the same runway, as the humans apparently did here.

[dpark]

It’s not weird that you believe automated ATC is possible. The weird thing is that you insist it’s simple.

People’s lives hang in the balance of a system built of corner cases. And you trot out radiation treatment as your metaphor? As if we didn’t royally fuck that up and kill a bunch of people at first.

[CamperBob2]

The 'simple' remark was in response to your wide-eyed implication that 1000 takeoffs and landings per day is somehow a challenge for modern computing systems.

You'll lose this argument sooner or later. I just hope it happens before several hundred people find out the hard way that humans no longer have any business in a control tower. With your attitude, Therac-25 would have been seen as grounds to shut down the entire field of radiotherapy.

[estearum]

> What makes the problem intractable? We can now do both voice recognition and synthesis at human levels, and any video game programmer from the 1980s can keep some objects from running into each other.

Great point!

It must be that despite the reliability, obvious advantages, and accessibility to "any video game programmer from the 1980s", everyone else is just choosing not to do it.

Alternatively, these things are not as simple or as reliable as you, a person who has no familiarity with the problem, assumes them to be.

I guess we'll never know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯