[raphlinus]

Thanks btw for saying clearly that BIO is not suitable for DVI output. I was curious about this and was planning to ask on social media.

I've done some fun stuff in PIO, in particular the NRZI bit stuffing for USB (12Mbps max). That's stretching it to its limit. Clearly there will be things for which BIO is much better.

I suspect that a variant of BIO could probably do DVI by optimizing for that specific use case (in particular, configuring shifters on the output FIFO), but I'm not sure it's worth the lift.

[bunnie]

USB 12Mbps is one of the envisioned core use cases - the Baochip doesn't have a host USB interface, so being able to emulate a full-speed USB host with a BIO core opens the possibility of things like having a keyboard that you can plug into the device. CAN is another big use case, once there is a CAN bus emulator there's a bunch of things you can do. Another one is 10/100Mbit ethernet - it's not fast - but good for extremely long runs (think repeaters for lighting protocols across building-scale deployments).

When considering the space of possibilities, I focused on applications that I could see there being actual product sold that rely upon the feature. The problem with DVI is that while it's a super-clever demo, I don't see volume products going to market relying upon that feature. The moment you connect to an external monitor, you're going to want an external DRAM chip to run the sorts of applications that effectively utilize all those pixels. I could be wrong and mis-judged the utility of the demo but if you do the analysis on the bandwidth and RAM available in the Baochip, I feel that you could do a retro-gaming emulator with the chip, but you wouldn't, for example, be replacing a video kiosk with the chip. Running DOOM on a TV would be cool, but also, you're not going to sell a video game kit that just runs DOOM and nothing else.

The good news is there's plenty of room to improve the performance of the BIO. If adoption is robust for the core, I can make the argument to the company that's paying for the tape-outs to give me actual back-end resources and I can upgrade the cores to something more capable, while improving the DMA bandwidth, allowing us to chase higher system frequencies. But realistically, I don't see us ever reaching a point where, for example, we're bit-banging USB high speed at 480Mbps - if not simply because the I/Os aren't full-swing 3.3V at that point in time.

[awjlogan]

My feeling about programmable IOs is they’re fun, but not the right choice for commodity high speed interfaces like USB. You obviously can make them work, but they’re large compared to what you would need for a dedicated unit. The DVI over PIO is a good example: showed something interesting (and that’s great!) but not widely useful. Also, a lot of protocols, even slow ones, have failure and edge cases that would need to be covered. Not to mention the physical characteristics, like you’ve said for high speed USB.

[MayeulC]

This is true, but only relevant if you order enough units (>100 k? Depending on price & margin of course) to customize your die. Otherwise, you have to find a chip with the I/Os that you want, all the rest being equal. Good luck with that if you need something specific (8 UARTs for instance) or obscure.

[raphlinus]

Yes, I can see BIO being really good at USB host. With 4k of SRAM I can see it doing a lot more of the protocol than just NRZI; easily CRC and the 1kHz SOF heartbeat, and I wouldn't be surprised if it could even do higher level things like enumeration.

You may be right about not much scope for DVI in volume products. I should be clear I'm just playing with RP2350 because it's fun. But the limitation you describe really has more to do with the architectural decision to use a framebuffer. I'm interested in how much rendering you can get done racing the beam, and have come to the conclusion it's quite a lot. It certainly includes proportional fonts, tiles'n'sprites, and 4bpp image decompression (I've got a blog post in the queue). Retro emulators are a sweet spot for sure (mostly because their VRAM fits neatly in on-chip SRAM), but I can imagine doing a kiosk.

Definitely agree that bit-banging USB at 480Mbps makes no sense, a purpose-built PHY is the way to go.