[alistairSH]

Is it actually true that the savings on home maintenance and social services offsets the higher salaries of white collar work? That's kind of crazy if it's true.

In the US, you can make pretty good money in the trades, but generally, there are many caveats - you have to be your own boss, preferably with a few employees; you pay your own benefits; you don't get any paid leave; and depending on the trade, you could be physically worn out before minimum retirement age (65 in the US to get health coverage as a retiree).

[Scarblac]

Right now blue collar work can pay much better than white collar work (in the Netherlands).

Not all of course, but construction work and electrician type work, certainly.

The labour shortages in construction and the energy transformation are huge. And it can't be solved with immigration because there is no housing.

[carlmr]

In Germany I'd say you still make more with white collar, if you have a job. The problem for Gen Z though, is that they aren't hiring for junior positions.

Still if you go blue collar you have to build your own business.

[bloppe]

> there is no housing

This could be said of literally anywhere except a ghost town, and it's only true in a very narrow sense. The problem is not housing supply. It's zoning, which is a political decision.

[AStrangeMorrow]

Might be surprising but I am kinda willing to believe it. Since we bought our house, we had quite a bit of work done by professionals. But whenever I can I do things myself.

Like I had multiple companies quote me $300-500 based on the job for things that take me maybe 2-3 hours total to do, including learning about it (will be faster next time), getting the materials, and doing the job.

When you have a few of these a months they add up. It is usually nothing for a month and then 4-5 things to fix/improve the next

[gruez]

>When you have a few of these a months they add up

If these jobs really number in "a few of these a month", then your inclusion criteria must be absurdly broad (eg. changing your lightbulb), or your home is on the verge of falling apart.

[everforward]

You may be surprised how many people can't mentally disassemble basic mechanical systems. I just helped a family member change the handle/arm on their toilet, and they'd been waiting a month for someone else to help. My mom is currently waiting for me to pick up some drywall anchors to re-mount a (small, lightweight) light fixture.

There are a lot of people who don't understand this stuff to a degree where they don't even know whether a repair is dangerous or not. My family member was afraid that if they messed up installing the toilet arm they'd flood their house.

Those people are very capable of having a few repairs a month, just on random stuff. Cabinet hinge screws wore out their hole and just needs a bigger screw, shower curtain mounting is loose and needs new anchors, an outdoor light fixture with a bulb cover needs a new lightbulb and they can't figure out how to get the cover off, etc.

[msdz]

The difference is that the work a contracted tradesperson will do is typically under some sort of guarantee, e.g. typically 2 years on work done in your home (up to 5 for bigger construction etc. type work), at least here in Germany… which you don’t (need to) factor in when DIY-ing.

[glitchc]

If your hourly wage is $150 or more, then the cost is break-even, or possibly cheaper to hire someone else.

[jbxntuehineoh]

only if you _have_ an hourly wage, if you're salaried it really doesn't make sense to value your time that way

[trollbridge]

Yes. It’s relatively straightforward to work on a fixer upper house during which time you are drawing no salary relative to that, and then you can turn around and sell it (or just enjoy being in a nice house which otherwise would have cost hundreds of thousands).

[alistairSH]

But if you're not drawing a salary/wages, how the heck are you buying groceries or paying the mortgage? You'd need to turn houses over very quickly/regularly for this to work...?

I'm not debating that tradespeople can make good money - that absolutely can. But, that's the exception not the norm...

The average plumber or electrician in the US earns about $65k/year... that's about 2/3 (or less) of an entry level programming job. Even if that isn't capturing side work/income, that's still less than a mid-career developer (earning $150-$200, more if they're on the west coast on NYC).

Put another way, even at retail consumer prices, I can buy a lot of plumbing or electrical service and still be money ahead on my fairly average engineering manager salary.

[trollbridge]

Live off of savings and then sell the house for a profit, thereby acquiring more savings. Then do it again.

(I know some people who basically do this - buy a non-habitable house, do a few weeks of work to make it habitable, live in it 2 years, do an entire house remodel themselves, then resell it. Up to $500,000 of profit is tax free.)

$200k mid career developer jobs are very hard to find and basically don’t exist outside of a few major cities.

[bloppe]

Someone with savings could take advantage. Medicaid is not actually means-based. It's income-based. In many states like California, so is SNAP. So a multi-millionaire can actually get free health care and $300/mo for food as long as they don't have income that year. Spend that time working on something that won't pay off for a few years, and you get a ton of benefits, even though you're already rich.

It's pretty bonkers.

[trollbridge]

Someone who had a business which is producing little or no income gets full coverage from the Medicaid, snap, etc safety net.

I don’t see a problem with this. I know people whose businesses produce a small profit or no profit at all and pay themselves a small salary. They also employer other people, who make a lot more than they do in wages. The government wants to strongly incentivise this kind of activity.

[notrustincloud]

Except for the fact that the application paperwork requires disclosure of assets, even an insurable collection qualifies against a 'lack of income', and will need to be declared. Failure to disclose risks committing fraud, subject to recovery of assistance and prosecution. So, no, not really.

[trollbridge]

No, it doesn’t. You can have a million dollar home and it doesn’t count.

Passive interest income needs to be declare, or dividends, but just owning a depreciating asset doesn’t count. The one exception is qualifying for Medicaid nursing care in old age - that does require liquidating assets except for 1 car and a primary residence.

[bloppe]

I can assure you that I asked this question explicitly to the Medicaid case worker I spoke to on the phone. "Are you sure my bank account does not matter?". They said no. I don't like it either.

[xhkkffbf]

And this is often taxed at capital gains rates which can be lower.

[trollbridge]

Yes, up to $125k per year per person excluded from capital gains.

[pmontra]

From what I see on the other side of the ocean, the same applies to Europe, at least to Italy. Add to the list: wake up early, drive to customers all the day long, learn to always smile and be kind to customers even when they don't deserve it.

[glitchc]

> Is it actually true that the savings on home maintenance and social services offsets the higher salaries of white collar work? That's kind of crazy if it's true.

Yes, this is called Baumol's cost disease.

[bloppe]

This is actually the opposite of Baumol's, which says that productivity gains in one sector result in price rises in other sectors. In this case, you have subsidized social services compensating for the fact that a sector with low productivity growth is not experiencing "enough" wage growth (according to the voters who want these subsidies).

[red-iron-pine]

$10-20k of home improvement work adds considerable value for reselling, and you're only on the hook for raw materials -- you've already got the tools and skills and time

one of the wealthiest dudes I know is a carpenter who loves workin wood. his free time is spent making cabinets and furnature and blasting obscure music

[LtWorf]

Most people don't like working in addition to working. Plus if you're constantly home renovating, it's kinda of hell living in there and your partner might go to greener pastures.

[saidnooneever]

i earn now too much to get social shit. just too much like few bucks.

my salary went up about 1.5x

my living costs went up more than 3x and rise each day seemingly.

its fuckin useless. like a scam.

sadly i have injuries that prevent going back to bluecollar job. Id be temped to ask my boss to lower my salary but that also feels fucking stupid.

maybe its time to avoid all taxes and go live in a fucking tent by the side of the road -_-.