[StefanBatory]

That's fair, but... What's the alternative? Obviously someone's going to have better academic performance if you have tutors, there's no way around. Still, if you have good academic performance - you have it.

American system feels more unfair when you're given points for extracurriculars like playing instruments or sports, like that's not going to hold poorer children even more (also how's that related to academic performance at all? Unis should not care about unrelated things)

[alistairSH]

The university will argue that a well-rounded student body improves the experience for everybody. IE, a college that's 100% "nerds" won't be as good as college that's 80% "nerds", 10% "smart jocks", and 10% "band geeks" (or whatever other categories you want).

I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective.

[bonoboTP]

In Europe, university is treated as education for adults, not your entire life. Most universities are not campus resorts like in the US, but just buildings in the city itself, students live a normal life in the city, they rent a apartment or live in a dorm, take public transit to get to places, do sport at a sport place independent of the university, etc. You can live a well rounded life that way. The university is there so you learn your specialization. Of course people make friends there, but it doesn't have to be your entire life, and the university administrators job is not to meddle with people's social lives to make them "interesting", but to allow learning.

[alistairSH]

Our oldest unis are generally "downtown" or similar - Harvard, Princeton, UVA (sort of - Charlottesville is a really small city), etc. Though most do still have their own dormitory housing, at least for underclassmen.

The large campus-style uni is fairly recent creation - many came out of the land grant system during/after the Civil War. And even as newer unis have been created, they've followed that general design (even though they aren't land grant institutions).

[jimbokun]

All of those universities you mention still immerse students in the university setting round the clock, though.

[mgfist]

> I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective.

Even worse, rich kids have far more means to engage in extracurriculars than poor kids.

[jimbokun]

This just means US universities are for networking and partying as much as they are for learning.

[keiferski]

Universities in the US and other countries are not the same, and comparing them is not really fruitful.

US universities do care about extracurriculars and GPA and other things because they aren’t optimizing for raw academic performance, they’re optimizing for various other things like an interesting student body (that attracts donors, professors, and future students), real-world networks, and so on.

[jimbokun]

In other words an extra four years of day care before those students have to function independently as adults.

[keiferski]

No, that’s not even remotely close to what I wrote, at any level. In fact, it’s closer to the opposite, because selecting purely based on an abstract exam has nothing to do with being a real-world adult, whereas extracurriculars, internships, etc. do to some level.

[jimbokun]

Camus life is not good preparation for post campus life, unless Google and Facebook are still modeling their work environments to imitate campus life.

[Ekaros]

Pure lottery for all slots? Seems that it would be fairest possible alternative. Anything else being less fair.

[nyeah]

One important thing is whether the tutoring is making better students, or just gaming the test.

[CalRobert]

And after graduation they can grind leetcode, and after that they can practice social cues to get in the management class. It's gamed tests all the way down.

[nyeah]

For people who choose that career path. Still, somewhere somebody is doing some work.

[CalRobert]

The uggos I guess

[jimbokun]

Are those independent?

[nyeah]

That's tricky. I think it depends on what kind of gaming and what kind of test.

[poulpy123]

Good schools for everyone