[alisonatwork]

I feel like a lot of this is culture and class specific. I can't speak for Japan, but in China there are at least as many different levels of chopstick-using skill as anywhere in the west. Kids and elderly who can't pick up a peanut or a cherry tomato, people who find it entirely unproblematic to stab a slippery dumpling, people who think it's stupid to waste time trying to get fried rice into your mouth with chopsticks and just grab a spoon instead, people who dredge their way through the hotpot to find the treat they're looking for...

I often get the sense that foreigners getting stressed about (or feeling pride in) how well they use chopsticks is a weird kind of orientalism. Because, like, who cares if someone shows up in a western restaurant and uses a spoon instead of knife to saw through something, or grabs a big hunk with a fork and takes a bite, leaving the rest on the fork? Maybe you wouldn't do it if you were having dinner with the queen, but any other context nobody cares. I'm sure parents still try to teach their kids to eat polite way, and maybe even feel a bit embarrassed if their kids show themselves to be less well-behaved than the neighbors', but that's a universal thing so, eh.

[tomcam]

lol describing me as an Orientalist will amuse my family to no end but you made some cogent observations. All I can say is: face is a big thing in China. I respect my in-laws hugely. I did not want them to lose face nor to be made to feel uncomfortable on my behalf if I could help it. As far as I can tell Orientalism and pride had nothing to do with it. Or maybe you’re right and I am a deeply closeted chiaboo. I’ll watch some anime or whatever and get right back to you.

[alisonatwork]

Sorry, that wasn't really what I was getting at.

The thing I find interesting with orientalism is that it has a mirror in chauvinism from the other direction, both sides reinforcing the idea that there is something special about the cultural norms of people from East Asia in particular. It's almost as if there is a deliberate effort to reify cultural differences in a way that feels counterproductive.

I think these forces are especially noticeable living as a migrant to this part of the world, in that you sometimes find people gushing over you for being able to use what is actually a pretty unremarkable set of utensils or occasionally shitting on you for not knowing an obscure bit of etiquette that locals rarely perform. Either way it's just another form of the "western people like this, Chinese people like that" discourse which at best is vapid and at worst straight-up racist. I don't think it really helps to build a common sense of humanity.

Anyway, I feel like this kind of article is representative of the problem, in that it serves to create anxiety that there is some secret etiquette that must be performed in order to not be seen as an uncultured barbarian. Again, I have no experience with Japan so maybe they really are just That Damn Serious about how they use their chopsticks, but I doubt it. At least for me it was quite reassuring to find that - outside of the folks who really did hold chauvinist and/or racist views - most people in China cared no more about how I ate than how anyone else ate, and that the range of what was socially acceptable eating for all people was wide enough to make it clear that these sorts of articles tend to be either deliberately divisive or out-of-touch.

[tomcam]

> it was quite reassuring to find that - outside of the folks who really did hold chauvinist and/or racist views - most people in China cared no more about how I ate than how anyone else ate

OK I agree completely. You will see atrocious manners in an average bar there. But my in-laws are brilliant scientists and thoughtful, gracious people. My mother in law is my hero. If I can reduce any friction in her life I will. Likewise when they visited us they were always closely observant of my behavior.

I think some of what you are characterizing as chauvinism or Orientalism is what I view as courtesy? I could very well be wrong on that one or misinterpreting you.

[cobbzilla]

You’re both making valid and sincere points.

I think the confusion may be in a situation (regardless of culture) where one knows that a loved one’s family has a high regard for courtesy and manners, and you’re willing and eager to please them, sometimes this desire could be mistaken by others for an obsession or “reification” of the specific culture of the family.

I have enjoyed the politeness of the comments from you both and appreciate your courtesy!

[tomcam]

Thanks. Same to you! I treasure such exchanges.

Sorry for the tardy reply. Had a couple of surgeries.