[jayd16]

Not knowing what's going on in Java is a personal problem. The language and jvm have its own quirks but it's no less knowable than any other compiler optimized code. The debugging and introspection tooling in Java is also best in class so I would say it's one of the more understandable run times.

Gradle does suck and maven is ok but a bit ugly.

[computerdork]

Actually, really like maven, it's focus on building in standard way is fantastic (but agreed, it look messy, with all its xml and necessary versioning).

[dionian]

LLMs take the whole argument away. Yes, maven/gradle/sbt suck to work with. But now you can just generate it.

[computerdork]

Actually, I like Maven. It's perfect for code that is broken into medium-sized projects, which makes it great for service-oriented architectures (would have said microservices here instead, but think we're learning that breaking our services too finely down is generally not a good idea).

Yeah, it seems like Maven is designed to build just one project with relatively little build-code (although, figuring out versioning of the libs used in your build can get tricky, but guessing this is how it is in most languages). It's still one of my favorites build tools for many situations.

[dionian]

I've been using maven for 20+ years, gradle for 10? ant for 5 before that. sbt for 15. I've written custom plugins for all of them. I know them quite well, unfortunately.

I use LLMs to maintain them now. I keep the build files simple. It was an inconvenience before, but a trifle now.

[spopejoy]

LOL I wish. LLMs massacre gradle code all the time. Once you're past boilerplate generation and doing anything remotely unusual they can't stop hallucinating broken shit that they insist works.

[ActorNightly]

Lets look at Java in modern day.

* Most mature Java project has moved to Kotlin.

* The standard build system uses gradle, which is either groovy or kotlin, which gets compiled to java which then compiles java.

* Log4shell, amongst other vulnerabilities.

* Super slow to adopt features like async execution

* Standard repo usage is terrible.

There is no point in using Java anymore. I don't agree that Rust is a replacement, but between Python, Node, and C/C++ extensions to those, you can do everything you need.

[piva00]

> Python, Node, and C/C++ extensions to those, you can do everything you need.

Or you can use Java and have libraries that cover almost anything provided in those languages, having access to a massive pool of labour when needed.

> * Log4shell, amongst other vulnerabilities.

As if no Python, JS, C/C++ libraries ever had vulnerabilities? That's a non-sequitur, every ecosystem has security issues, the most important aspect is how quickly they are fixed. Given Java's massive size, a lot of libraries see high usage, and are actively developed, so security patches are released quite quickly.

> * Standard repo usage is terrible.

What does this even mean? Standard library?

Java has its place, it's boring technology that gets things done, and let companies hire from a immense pool.

By the way, over 25 years of carreer I have professionally worked with Java, Scala, Kotlin, Clojure, Obj-C, Go, Python, Ruby, PHP, JS, even ASP 3.0, and some .NET (C# and F#). I'm not a Java purist but I call your arguments a bit bullshit, all of these languages have their places, strengths and weaknesses, the sooner you realise they are tools and if they are generally used perhaps there's something valuable about each of them, the sooner you stop wasting time trying to argue why "X sucks, use Y".

Use the best tool for the job, knowing more tools is never bad.

[ActorNightly]

> Java and have libraries that cover almost anything provided in those languages,

This is pretty funny.

or example, the other day I wrote a menu for mac os using rumps. Simply pip install rumps, write code, run, boom Mac os menu. Let me know when I can do the equivalent for java, or any other "performant" language.

>As if no Python, JS, C/C++ libraries ever had vulnerabilities?

Comparing the severity of log4shell to any python vulnerability is beyond crazy.

You have the Apache foundation, pushing its logging library as the industry standard, and multiple people saw no problem with not only the idea of a log statement being able to execute arbitrary code from the internet, but also making it the default behavior.

If at that point, everyone would instantly abandon any software from Apache in Java, I would have more respect for Java devs. But of course, they can't, because the ecosystem is so small that there is no replacements, so everyone is forced to cuck out to Apache, and who knows what and when other idiotic decision they are going to make.

And as a reminder, this used to be a thing https://www.reddit.com/r/java/comments/19s23g/online_counter...

There are plenty of other issues to cover on Java, but the log4shell pretty much is indefensible. Even if Im wrong about everything else, my argument still stands on that alone.

[piva00]

Ok, don't use Java, it's fine :)

[ActorNightly]

Its not about personal use, its about people getting facts wrong about Java.

[piva00]

Facts wrong about Java, that's quite a nothing sentence across this thread, innit?

[gf000]

> Most mature Java project has moved to Kotlin.

Demonstrably false, not even close

Re Gradle using groovy/kotlin: so what? Gradle is not a standard any more than Maven, and java is not primary used as a scripting language, so it makes sense that it has a different language for its config files? What's the deal here?

Show me a language without vulnerabilities.

It has virtual threads for quite some times and it is a much much better choice for most use cases than async.

[ActorNightly]

>Demonstrably false, not even close

Are you arguing that the Android Ecosystem uses Java? Because it most certainly moved to Kotlin, and will soon move even off of that.

>Show me a language without vulnerabilities.

There is a scale of vulnerability severeness in terms of severity and how the vulnerability was introduced.

Most every language has libraries with bugs that can create vulnerability. Log4shell wasn't a bug - it was introduced intentionally without anyone at Apache looking at it and thinking that it was wrong, knowing that log4j is the most widely used logging library for java.

[gf000]

> Are you arguing that the Android Ecosystem uses Java

Now you are just arguing in bad faith. Who talks about Android, which historically lagged a decade behind OpenJDK and not particularly good at being up to date even today, so people moved to kotlin vs java without goddamn lambdas? Is that your argument? Especially that it's a tiny segment compared to the vastness of web backends. Are Google's, apple's, alibaba's backends, amazon cloud etc insignificant in your mind?

And you may want to browse the list of vulnerabilities, there are plenty interesting ones.