[michieldotv]

I get that in the West we are generally conceiving at a later stage in life than before, and that this does not improve odds of conception. However, with fertility, just as with so many things, we are individualising the problem. Here too the focus is on age. Just get kids when you're younger! What's the big deal.

Let's set aside that there are deeper sociological reasons on why young people start with kids later in life. We are not giving enough weight to all of the pollutants that we are exposed to in society, and how they affect our bodies, health and lives.

I heard Dr. Shanna Swan talk recently about the effects of hormone disrupting chemicals on (male) infertility. It's dire stuff really.

She was on the podcast promoting a recent Netflix documentary called The Plastic Detox in which they intervene in couple's lifestyles to reduce the amount of plastics and the hormone disrupting chemicals (bisphenols, phthalates, etc) they are exposed to. I highly recommend it.

There's over 70 different hormones in the human body regulating all kinds of biological functions. Fertility is only one aspect but think about the adverse effects these chemicals might be having on body weight, our sleep cycle, blood pressure, stress, libido, etc. We are prescribed drugs for related ailments at record rates. Maybe we should take a step back and treat less and prevent more.

[rayiner]

You’re correct. All this talk about when people choose to have kids over-intellectualizes that what is a biological function. My wife and I have three kids. I’m not sure you can say any of them resulted from a rigorous analysis. We had our first in law school as a happy surprise. We theoretically planned our second and third, a six year gap after the first. But that the timing coincided with moving from an apartment to a house. We weren’t thinking about more kids when we moved—we wanted to take advantage of good interest rates. But my wife observed later that the availability of more space for kids probably subconsciously influenced our decision to have more.

When talking about hormone disruption, I think people over-focus on how that affects the ability to have kids. But that overlooks how hormones can change behaviors and desires. I don’t see anyone rebutting the fact that testosterone levels in prime-age men have dropped by half compared to the 1960s. Yet nobody seems to be talking about that as a probable cause in the drop in fertility rates. Even if these men are technically able to have kids if they want. Is it possible that the drop in testosterone levels means that men are less interested in having kids, and perhaps less able to persuade women into doing so?

[wat10000]

I think that humans just didn't evolve to want so many kids just for the sake of having them.

It's not like fertility rates just started dropping in the 1960s. TFR in the US 200 years ago was over 7. Wealth and fertility are anti-correlated almost universally, at least at the population level.

Why did people centuries or millennia ago have so many children? Partly economic reasons: they can work your farm, and they can support you when you're old. Partly because sex is great and children are a frequent result of it.

The economic reasons fade as wealth grows, and the connection between sex and having children gets decoupled by technology. That leaves innate desire, which just doesn't seem to be that strong. We don't need to posit some recent drop in innate desire to explain the drop in fertility rates. The historical behavior we see fits just fine with innate desire being constant, and just not that high.

[skissane]

> That leaves innate desire, which just doesn't seem to be that strong. We don't need to posit some recent drop in innate desire to explain the drop in fertility rates. The historical behavior we see fits just fine with innate desire being constant, and just not that high.

It varies from person to person; some of that variation is social/cultural influences, some is life experiences/circumstances, some is just randomness-but very likely it has a genetic component.

If certain alleles predispose one to be more likely to desire to have children, then in a society with strong social pressure to have children and limited availability of contraception, the selective pressure in favour of those alleles is going to be limited; in a society where social pressure to have children is low and contraception is readily available, those alleles will significantly increase the odds of having children, likely resulting in their frequency increasing over time, and maybe even (in the very long-run) a rebound in TFR

[alphawhisky]

"Less able to persuade women into doing so" is crazy. IMO the single biggest factor preventing kids right now in the US and other developed countries is the effects of COVID on the global economy along with the most significant period of global economic uncertainty in at least the 21st century. The amount of energy put into fertility is a waste, and by just enabling everyone to afford children the population problem could be solved. I'm also very afraid that all of these "fertility" companies are on a warpath to designer babies and I fear that could absolutely destroy trust and mutual respect in our society globally.

[wat10000]

I'm not convinced the economic argument is correct. Anecdotally, two is by far the most common number of kids among other parents I know. They're all pretty well off so I don't think that's the reason. It's definitely not COVID as their kids are some years too old for that. Nor do I think it's age or infertility, as they had plenty of time and there's no wistful talk about wishing they could have another one. As far as I can tell, they stopped at 2 because they wanted to.

[brabel]

Your theory is easily disproven by looking at other countries with far more volatile economies than the USA. They almost always have much higher fertility rates no matter how bad their economies are. But don’t feel bad: every single theory people have come up to explain decreasing fertility rates in nearly every country on the planet can be shown to not match reality one way or another. Whoever comes up with an explanation that matches reality is going to get a Nobel Prize.

[hypeatei]

I don't have kids, but I think this might be a generational schism where the default view of older generations is that having kids "is just what you do" without much more thought and younger generations see them as a burden. Obviously, generations of people are not a monolith but I think that holds true generally. You might be right that testerone levels have resulted in a declining birth rate, but you also have to consider methods of birth control that are available to women and how atomized society is at the moment (both sexes can do just fine independently)

There are a lot of variables that are hard to control for.

[brabel]

I don’t have kids. We are mid 40s now so chances are nearly zero. Wife does not even want sex for a few years. I have no idea what the problem is. If you know, please let me know!!!

[skissane]

> Wife does not even want sex for a few years. I have no idea what the problem is. If you know, please let me know!!!

Have you talked to her about what the problem is? It doesn’t sound like you have. In which case, that almost certainly is at least part of the problem

[brabel]

Oh what amazing advice! Never thought to ask her why!

Seriously: she is really good at evading conversations like that. I have done all I could imagine to get her to actually talk about kids and our non existing intimate relationship. She always either gets angry or silent or changes the topic. Without knowing anything about me, some people are always inclined to believe something is wrong with me, not her. That’s so utterly unfair. I always treated her like a princess, work out and try to be healthy and look good, share all chores and take care of the house. Really if something is wrong with me she has never told me. Like I said I have no idea what to do.

[skissane]

You don’t sound happy. If you don’t have kids, why stay together?

[jacquesm]

Do you specialize in asking rude obvious questions?

[James_K]

The biggest fertility distributor is probably sugar by a country mile. Being fat screws with your hormones.