[phendrenad2]

It's too bad we have to play this semantics game of "most vs all" every. Single. Time. On. This Damn Site.

So let me summarize the above thread:

Yes, there will always be workarounds for ANY level of anti-cheat. Yes, kernel-mode anti-cheat detects a higher number of cheats in practice, and that superiority seems durable going forward.

There, I think we can all agree on those. No need to reiterate what has already been posted.

[himata4113]

I think it misses the fact that kernel anticheats generally do not reduce overall cheating compared to a good user-mode anticheat + good obfuscation and binary protection + strong report system and behavior analysis. If you add a kernel-mode anticheat to that I'd estimate that it helps only around 5% more while being way more invasive and causing widespread issues (as the original blog describes).

source: observation of games implying stronger anti-cheat measures over time and customer count staying exactly the same or growing. league of legends is a prime example, although it did create a crater for awhile. this all comes from people who actively sell cheats.

[maccard]

I’m sorry but what’s your source for this? This is a fairly wild claim.

[AnimalMuppet]

Sorry, what's wild about it? It's a pretty standard observation that defense in depth beats "here's a silver bullet to solve X". Is there something about gaming (or preventing cheating in gaming) that makes that not true?

[maccard]

What makes you think that I think kernel AC is a silver bullet? I’ve said in pretty much every comment here that cheating is an arms race and there’s no silver bullet.

Taking the defence in depth argument - kernel AC is another layer that helps and makes it more difficult for the cheaters. But some defences are more crucial than others - you don’t use MD5 anymore for security because it’s just broken. IMO, the same can be said about user mode anti cheat.

[himata4113]

huh, couldn't reply for awhile.

anyway: I already edited with the source.

[maccard]

There’s a cooldown on replies!

An anecdote of one game isn’t proof that they don’t help - you’re not comparing it against a game that kept user mode AC to see what the impact was there. The fact that vanguard “cratered” the cheats for a while shows it’s effective, right? The actual goal isn’t 0 cheats (that’s impossible), it’s keep pushing back the cheaters.

[himata4113]

at the end of the way it was temporary and cheating is now stealthier, better and pushed the global community to innovate causing problems for other games that now have to deal with highly sophisticated cheats.

[phendrenad2]

I'm kind of lazy, but I did click around a bit through the thread to try to find your source. I couldn't find it. Can you copy-paste the relevant data here? (I.E. where you get this "5%" figure, even if it's just estimated)

[himata4113]

observation of games implying stronger anti-cheat measures over time and customer count staying exactly the same or growing. league of legends is a prime example, although it did create a crater for awhile. this all comes from people who actively sell cheats.

nothing I can give solid foundations for so you'll just have to take my word for it.

[phendrenad2]

Based on those observations, I'm not convinced of your conclusions. There are a lot of unaccounted-for variables (such as game popularity, prize pools, government effecacy in cracking down on black markets, etc.). If someone does this same analysis, and accounts for those other variables in some way, and includes a lot more than one game in the dataset, I might be convinced that there is some evidence that kernel-mode anti-cheat isn't effective, but then, we need to establish that it isn't simply a deficiency in the implementations...