[hparadiz]

I'm already running an LLM locally. This is just me renting space in a data center. Since when did we restrict people's ability to do things? For the record my local models run off the solar bolted to my roof. Even including the data center I'm using 1/10th of the energy we were using on tube monitors back in the 90s. This is exhausting. My GPU would be demonstrably using more power by playing a videogame right now than when I run a local LLM.

[jrmg]

Since when did we restrict people's ability to do things?

This question is not the obvious winner you think it is. To me, and I am sure many, it sort of undermines your argument.

Even in the most ‘free' cultures, society has _always_ restricted people’s individual ability to do things that it collectively deems harmful to the whole society.

[hparadiz]

This is literally why America was founded. Too many people stifle innovation. Move to Europe if you want to be stuck in the 20th century frankly. That doesn't mean we can't take care of folks. But the ludites need to get the fuck out of the way. You're all exhausting.

[jrmg]

And people in the late 1700s were just allowed to do anything? (The answer to that is obviously ‘no’).

I’m not even in complete disagreement with your opinion on data centers (like, people are coming up with noise, water use, pollution and traffic arguments about why a data center should not replace a recently controversially closed paper mill near me, which is ridiculous), but your argument doesn’t work. You need to change it if you want to convince people.

[pocksuppet]

America was founded because rich people didn't want to pay taxes.

[moate]

>>when did we restrict people's abilities to do things? That's literally what most laws are, saying what you can and can't do. This is like, a foundational understanding of what government/regulation is.

>>this is just me renting space... Okay, so a "network effect" is when things have greater impact due to larger usage. So the data center usage that you're talking about does not represent the overall impact of the data center. Saying "I only pour ONE cup of bleach into the ocean, so I don't see why it's so bad to have the bleach factory pump all its waste in as well" is a WILD take.

[Arainach]

>Since when did we restrict people's ability to do things?

When those things impact other people - such as by skyrocketing utility prices, overloading the electrical grid, and more.

[hparadiz]

I thought this was a free market? Or is that not how things work anymore?

[balamatom]

An absolute free market would, by definition, permit the selling of the service "restrict someone's freedom for me".

Not sure if that leaves it a free market. So if we're gonna be talking holes in the cheese - seems like you're reasoning in terms of a basically self-contradictory notion.

But truly, what do you reckon about the 1st point, in terms of the interpretation of market freedom which you use?

[Arainach]

Never has been. A totally free market doesn't work and has failed every time it was tried. You want one today, go set up shop in Somalia.

[hparadiz]

I can't respect that opinion. It's full of holes.

[Arainach]

Holes such as what?

There have always been rules and laws. The US has never been a totally free market. Most of the laws and rules we have were written in blood by people professing a "free market" right to poison our people, rivers, air, and more.

[hparadiz]

America was largely a free market until the 1920s. Since then more regulations have actually increased the cost of living. The healthcare problem in America has a lot to do with increased regulations. For one we have a fixed limit on how many doctors can graduate every year. That was put in place by the medical lobby in the US. Ever since then healthcare costs have increased exponentially. Tale as old as time. This happens with every single new rule put in place. Rent control does the same thing. Prices just go up. This includes NIMBY laws.

[pocksuppet]

What are the holes? There are places today with no government - perfect free markets. If you think perfect free markets are awesome, you can move there and do business there. It's a bit like telling someone who loves communism to go to China.

[sumeno]

> Since when did we restrict people's ability to do things?

At least 4000 years ago, but that's just the earliest we have evidence for

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

[hparadiz]

I don't think you understand the qualifier. I meant in the tradition of liberal free markets that have unlocked human potential on the global scale. I'm saying no it's actually good that you don't have to ask the local government when you want to do something. If American style free markets didn't gain traction we'd still be doing subsistence farming.

[tadfisher]

The thing is, since we recognized that such a tradition led to the unfettered destruction of the natural environment which we depend upon to survive, we have decided that local governments should be responsible for preserving said environment by regulating the destructive actions performed by the liberal free market. Not doing so will even destroy our ability to perform subsistence farming in the long run.

[hparadiz]

So far all I hear is complaining about electricity prices. No one actually cares about the "environment". They are just mad that the KW/h is up 3 cents.

[tadfisher]

Then you are not replying to me in good faith. I didn't say a thing about electricity rates.