[dakolli]

If you rely on llms, you're simply not going to make it. The person who showed their work on the math test is 9/10 times is doing better in life than the person that only knew how to use a calculator. Now how do we think things are going to turn out for the person that doesn't even think they need to learn how to use a calculator.

Just like when people started losing their ability to navigate without a GPS/Maps app, you will lose your ability to write solid code, solve problems, hell maybe even read well.

I want my brain to be strong in old age, and I actually love to write code unlike 99% in software apparently (like why did you people even start doing this career.. makes no sense to me).

I'm going to keep writing the code myself! Stop paying Billionaires for their thinking machines, its not going to work out well for you.

[electrosphere]

I went into software because I like building things and coming up with solid solutions to business problems that are of use to society. I would not describe myself with "love to code". It's a means to an end to pay bills and have a meaningful career. I think of myself more like a carpenter or craftsman.

I used a coding agent for the majority of my current project and I still got the "build stuff" itch scratched because Engineers are still responsible for the output and they are needed to interface between technical teams, UX, business people etc

[jacquesm]

> I think of myself more like a carpenter or craftsman.

> I used a coding agent for the majority of my current project and I still got the "build stuff" itch scratched because Engineers are still responsible for the output and they are needed to interface between technical teams, UX, business people etc

Then you are the opposite of a carpenter or a craftsman, no matter what you think about it yourself.

[mwigdahl]

What term would you use for that "opposite"?

[jplusequalt]

The commissioner? You don't actually possess the knowledge that went into the code, as you did not write it.

[jacquesm]

Plumber?

[dakolli]

Yeah could you imagine a project manager saying they are like a carpenter or a craftsman lmfao

[electrosphere]

Taking AI out of the equation for a minute - they don't build anything, engineers do. A carpenter builds a chair, table etc using the skill he has accumulated over the years.

[wccrawford]

I went into software because I love to code.

And yet, I find a coding agent makes it even more fun. I spend less time working on the boilerplate crap that I hate, and a lot less time searching Google and trying to make sense of a dozen half-arsed StackOverflow posts that don't quite answer my question.

I just went through that yesterday with Unity. I did all the leg work to figure out why something didn't work like I expected. Even Google's search engine agent wasn't answering the question. It was a terrible, energy-draining experience that I don't miss at all. I did figure it out in the end, though.

Prior to yesterday, I was thinking that using AIs to do that was making it harder for me to learn things because it was so easy. But comparing what I remember from yesterday to other things I did with the AI, I don't really think that. The AI lets me do it repeatedly, quickly, and I learn by the repetition, and a lot of it. The slow method has just 1 instance, and it takes forever.

This is certainly an exciting time for coders, no matter why they're in the game.

[dakolli]

Cool you had it do something for you, this isn't building or learning no matter what you tell yourself. Your brain is going to atrophy. The process of building can be frustrating, so what, so is training for a marathon or anything rewarding in life.

[slibhb]

> The person who showed their work on the math test is 9/10 times is doing better in life than the person that only knew how to use a calculator

Sure but once you learn long multiplication/division algorithms by hand there's not much point in using them. By high school everyone is using a calculator.

> Just like when people started losing their ability to navigate without a GPS/Maps app

Are you suggesting people shouldn't use Google Maps? Seems kind of nuts. Similar to calculators, the lesson here is that progress works by obviating the need to think about some thing. Paper maps and compasses work the same way, they render some older skill obsolete. The written word made memorization infinitely less valuable (and writing had its critics).

I don't think "LLMs making us dumber" is a real concern. Yes, people will lose some skills. Before calculators, adults were probably way better at doing arithmetic. But this isn't something worth prioritizing.

However, it is worth teaching people to code by hand, just like we still teach arithmetic and times tables. But ultimately, once we've learned these things, we're going to use tools that supercede them. There's nothig new or scary about this, and it will be a significant net win.

[jplusequalt]

>I don't think "LLMs making us dumber" is a real concern. Yes, people will lose some skills. Before calculators, adults were probably way better at doing arithmetic.

But it's a problem of scale.

Calculators are very specific tools. If you are trying to run a computation of some arithmetic/algebraic expression, then they are a great tool. But they're not going to get you far if you need help understanding how to file your taxes.

LLMs are multi-faceted tools. They can help with math, doing taxes, coding, doing research, writing essays, summarizing text, etc. Basically anything that can be condensed into an embedding that the LLM can work with is fair game.

If you're willing to accept that using a tool slowly erodes the skill that tool was made for, then you should also accept that you will see an erosion of MANY skill you currently have.

So the question is whether this is all worth it? Is an increase in productivity worth eroding a strong foundation of general purpose knowledge? Perhaps even the ability to learn in the first place?

I would argue no a million times over, but I'm starting to think that I'm an outlier.

[dakolli]

Yeah, I agree. However, people use llms for the same reason people drive 3 blocks to a store rather than walk. Laziness and convenience. They simply don't care if their leg muscles atrophy. However, I think people aren't taking into account how much more important your thinking "muscles" are and its way more consequential to let those atrophy.

Everyone is vulnerable to the allure of taking shortcuts in life, but I've learned over the years that there is no free lunch. This is going too be quite an expensive trade off for many.

[slibhb]

People will have to be more intentional about using their increased leisure time in a healthy way. There was no point in exercising if you were a peasant who worked the field all day. Today, if you sit down in an office all day, you need to exercise intentionally. People have figured this out!

Along the same lines, AI will necessitate a shift where people intentionally use their extra intellectual leisure time. Reading, writing, chess, learning a new language, etc.

Not everyone will do this. Some people will be the intellectual equivalent of obese. But people will figure it out eventually.

[jplusequalt]

>But people will figure it out eventually.

Will they? >50% of US adults are overweight or obese. Is this the example you want to hang your hat on?

[slibhb]

People are figuring it out in real time. The next generation is going to be way less fat than the current one, because everyone exercises. It took time for people to adjust to a world where physical exertion is optional and delicious food is cheap, but we are getting there. I see no reason to assume the same thing won't happen with AI.

[slibhb]

The written word isn't a very specific tool. Before writing, people had to memorize things. In some sense, writing has made us dumber as memorization has been deemphasized. But was it worth the trade? Yes.

If you want a more recent example, google search is an extremely broad tool that has operated similarly.

I think AI will be another rung in the ladder of abstraction. Something will be lost, but it's worth the trade.

[jplusequalt]

I don't agree that writing, or Google search are on the same level here. A problem about having this argument on HN is that I think most people are already firmly entrenched in the pro-AI position, and will not consider any possible downsides.

[slibhb]

There are lots of anti-AI commenters on HN. Also, I didn't say there are no downsides. There are downsides to writing! And some people were against writing, like Socrates.

You should ask yourself why you're okay with innovations that happened in the past but not okay with innovations happening now. It could just be reflexive conservativism.

Of course there's no guarantee that AI will be more positive than negative, but I see no compelling reason to believe that. Most of the anti-AI sentiment is just people not liking new things.

[jplusequalt]

>You should ask yourself why you're okay with innovations that happened in the past but not okay with innovations happening now.

Because these innovations are not congruent with our most important biological advantage! We are here precisely because we developed the capacity to think critically about hard problems. To relegate our critical faculties to an activity you engage with during a small window of time each day similar to a muscle you exercise at the gym is asinine in my opinion. I firmly believe in the future, people like you will become a new underclass as they have willingly given up their ability to think.

[kuschku]

> Sure but once you learn long multiplication/division algorithms by hand there's not much point in using them. By high school everyone is using a calculator.

And many lose the ability to do long division by high school, where they'll have to relearn it for polynomial long division, which typical school calculators can't handle easily.

[iSnow]

>I want my brain to be strong in old age, and I actually love to write code unlike 99% in software apparently (like why did you people even start doing this career.. makes no sense to me).

I am old now, and the unfortunate truth is that my brain isn't working as fast or as precise as when I was young. LLMs help me maintain some of my coding abilities.

It's like having a non-judgemental co-coder sitting at your side, you can discuss about the code you wrote and it will point out things you didn't think of.

Or I can tap into the immense knowledge about APIs LLMs have to keep up with change. I wouldn't be able to still read that much documentation and keep all of this.

[duskdozer]

I agree but only in the very long term. I think short-medium term, it's not going to matter as the MBA types get so caught up in the mania that results matter even less than they normally do.

[laweijfmvo]

when i was in school we were graded (yes, actually given a letter grade) on our handwriting. mine was pretty terrible. i think i’m doing alright now.

[dakolli]

lmao, this response kinda proves my point.. Have you already lost your ability to think brother?

[oerdier]

One doesn't exclude the other. I still program myself; I actually have more time to do so because the LLM I pay some billionaire for is taking care of the mundane stuff. Before I had to do the mundane stuff myself. What I pay the billionaire is a laughable fraction compared to the time and energy I now have extra to spend on meaningful innovation.