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by Towaway69 105 days ago
> Anybody who stays at openai

And paying off their mortgage and feeding their families and has a job in unstable times.

Morals come a distant last in the current state of affairs.

9 comments

No, principles are even more important in unstable times. Anyone can excuse any behavior otherwise. And everyone at OpenAI has alternatives. This isn't choosing between prostitution or drug slinging to pay for baby formula for them. It is "how early can I retire" - and the answer should be later if it crosses boundaries. The ends do not justify the means.
What’s the last principled thing you did? Drive less to save the environment?

Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach.

I know, this isn’t about you but then again it’s not about this one person who resigned either nor the employees of openai nor about anyone else.

I’ve provide an alternative PoV for why folks might not quit their jobs for their principles. Each to their own.

> What’s the last principled thing you did?

Leaving a job for one that paid 3x less. And they weren't making automated killing machines (at least at the time, who knows now).

> Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach.

Quite easy to practice what you preach, if you indeed have principles.

99% of people with families and mortgages manage to do so without OpenAI comp packages. It's a meaningless excuse, completely irrelevant.

I agree with you on non judgement but would push back - if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have.
Even though I strongly agree with the other person about reasons why people wouldn't leave...

I agree even strongly with what you just said: "if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have."

The reality is, I don't think people really understand what a deeply held principle is. It's often a non-negotiable.

And then sometimes you have to question your principles and perhaps let them go. This can happen, for example, when children grow up and become adults. Their parents _should_ do a lot of letting go.

Perhaps folks involved with electronic devices are too used to a black & white decision world. Computer says no or computer says yes, there is no maybe. The real world of principles, morals, emotions, humans etc is filled with maybes and that can become hard to navigate for computers.

Agreed. But in that case, it's no longer a principle because, as you said, it's been let go.

The point above was about prioritizing something above the principle one still keeps.

I work in marketing, nothing black and white about it.

Someone with OpenAI on their resume (and vested shares) does not have to worry about finding another job, paying the mortgage, or feeding their families.

This is not a relevant point to this discussion.

There are levels to morality, from the abstract (e.g. climate change, energy usage, veganism) to the concrete (murder). Time are unstable, but there are multiple ways to make money. If you are established in your career, you can probably find work in a similar field, but the worst case scenario would be to drive a truck.

The way you frame it, you make it sound like an engineer at OpenAI has no choice but to work there or end up on the street. But an engineer at OpenAI is not going to end up driving a truck, they're going to remain and engineer.

Unfortunately there are such things as social media where potential new employers check.

That makes this step even more risky as this is an open opposition. Mostly probably they have already signed at anthropic.

Why have them if they don't mean anything?
That’s the result of equating survival with earning money. Western societies have done a good job of ensuring that. As long as morals aren’t equated to either to money or survival, they lose their meaning and become nice to have.
> That’s the result of equating survival with earning money. Western societies have done a good job of ensuring that.

OpenAI engineers with vested shares are not worried about having enough money to survive.

This is a lame attempt to shoe-horn unrelated political talking points and “Western society bad” into a conversation about highly paid engineers who will have no problem putting food on the table.

I was responding to a question on why have morals if they have no application.

If don’t like this example, how about folks going to church on Sundays listening to the Christian morals on not killing each other and during the week, these same folks work at the DoW organising wars around the world.

Or the politician taking lobbyists money. Or those folks who engage in recreational drug use while fighting a “war on drugs”.

There are many examples of morals playing second fiddle to the broader world around us.

And in every case there are people like you making excuses for them. Engineers working at OpenAI are not scraping by to provide for their families. They don't get a pass to do unethical things to keep their jobs.
I wonder to what extent a lot of people in this discussion have no idea how high OpenAI's salary ranges are.
I think they know, but they see topics like this as a generic place to discuss their ideas about society or politics. So they start making points about something different and forget that it doesn’t have any relevance to the topic.
I know that's the result.

My question is, given that result, why continue to have them if they don't influence one's choices? You're making a case that our current economic system is incompatible with having morals.

Morals are there so that folks go to church with their families on Sunday, have an affair with their sectaries during the week and drink too much with their mates on Friday night because they feel bad about their moral choices.
You're saying the purpose of morals is not to inform choice making, but to make people feel bad?

Why have them then? The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

Morals were invented to hold a larger group of humans together. Smaller groups can be held together by everyone knowing each other, larger groups required a more complex system of trust.

Morals are the glue for nation states. Morals prevent us from driving over others, morals prevent us from being mean to others. Moral makes us trust the politicians we vote for because we are told they have the same morals as we.

My somewhat cynical picture of morals is only to make a point of how deep morals go in our societies. Folks have conscience and morals are the basis of that conscience - be it good or evil.

Police and armies enforce these morals in the form of laws and legal constructs. Important to note though that morals are not filly encoded as laws, these are two concepts are separate societal adhesives.

I'm sorry but with this justification anything that makes you money can be justified. You can pay the mortgage by robbing a bank too, and that's likely to get fewer people killed.
Easy to say from a comfortable position.
Do you feel the same way about people joining ICE? They probably need the money a lot more than those at OpenAI.
For ICE as well: best to leave, unless you plan to do subversion from within. Ie. you can be the eyes and ears for the general public. You can be the whistleblower. You can be the leaker. You can use the breaks when needed. You can add checks and balances. You can be a hero for the general public (on paper, whether you get the credits sooner or later, who knows).

Somehow I hope such people still work at Twitter/X.com... but I really doubt it. In the US military? Oh, absolutely. Are they noisy? Probably and preferably not. The mere possibility of their existence shivers the authoritarians. And they exist, concealed below the surface. And where they do not exist, they may develop.

Morals come FIRST at Open AI.

Their whole schtick is based on ensuring safety for humanity given the existential risk of a singularity.

Open AI employees MUST get called out, because entire economies and industries are being reshaped due to their statements.

They aren't some mom and pop shop, and they aren't some typical tech firm.

Unstable times. What on earth happened recently to make software engineer an unstable job…?
Software engineers were very insistent that politics would not be discussed at work. Now politics came to wreck their lives, anyway!
No you need morals. Especially those fortunate enough to be hired by a leading company like OAI - they would be desired by any tech company.
Laughable.

These people are lusting for generational wealth, not scrambling to put bread on the table.