[bythreads]

Worked for years in japan, beg to disagree.

Love japanese and japan but their work culture is horrific - Japanese are inefficient and the veneer of looking to work "hard" is more important than the hard work itself. People often stay until ridiculously late just to show they "put in the effort" which is more important than outcome.

Then again that happens in many other countries as well ...

[OneMorePerson]

Most places/countries/companies that value hard work tend to produce a lot, but I also wonder what goes on when it tilts too far and hard work becomes what you are measuring for. In the US for example there's still the vague idea that working hard is a virtue of sorts, but there's also an equivalent desire to produce something, be efficient, etc.

I haven't directly experienced Japanese work culture (just language and traveling) but it seems like they value hard work above all else, which makes innovation almost a threat. You might take away someone's opportunity to show "hard work" if you removed a difficult task.

[rbanffy]

> In the US for example there's still the vague idea that working hard is a virtue of sorts, but there's also an equivalent desire to produce something,

This is the root of a lot of busywork and bullshit jobs as well. People work hard producing something of little and often negative value.

Think of all the effort that goes into making competitive products, from life insurance and cellphone plans to airline tariffs difficult to compare. Compound that with advertising campaigns that don’t inform about the product or service they are selling. All that consumes colossal resources and deliver effectively negative value for society, for a market to be maximally efficient it needs informed consumers that can compare offerings.

[OneMorePerson]

Oh yeah no doubt. That kind of thing is just human nature to some extent. Anywhere where getting something done gets you promoted or paid more (which again is a necessary side effect of rewarding progress) tends to have cases where people are producing bullshit or inflating their real contribution.

Yeah I wonder about that sometimes, the maximal balance between efficiency and inefficiency. Some things are clearly a waste (like advertising as you mentioned) but then other stuff is part of innovation, and it's sometimes a bit fuzzy between the two. On paper it's wasteful that Mazda, Toyota, Ford, etc. all had to independently develop a sedan, yet it would be far worse if we only had one car company to choose from (far worse because of how monopolies inevitably stagnate).

[rbanffy]

> far worse because of how monopolies inevitably stagnate

Unregulated monopolies do, but regulated ones can be forced to innovate, both according to a plan, or through a process that internalises competition at the places where impact would be maximised (instead of multiple groups arriving at the same solution in secrecy, multiple groups exploring different possibilities while communicating between them and coordinating their efforts to avoid duplication).

[OneMorePerson]

Do you have any examples? I can't think of a single regulated monopoly that innovates effectively without outside forces.

For example some countries that have regulated monopolies can allow in small amounts of foreign products to motivate their own state sponsored companies, but without that and assuming its not something relatively straightforward like a utility or an oil company, I'm not aware of any that innovate effectively.

[zikduruqe]

> In the US for example there's still the vague idea that working hard is a virtue of sorts

And easily demonstrable when meeting someone in a social setting:

"Hi, what's your name?"

Then the very next question: "What do you do for a living?"

[OneMorePerson]

I wonder sometimes if this is actually about the job as people say, or if it has something to do with that's convenient to ask. Your job is arguably one of the most public facing things about you, and is also somewhat impersonal. I've been other countries where they launch straight into "how many kids do you have?" (or plan to have), "how much money do you make", "what neighborhood do you live in" and I kinda missed just being asked about my job.

[cedws]

Yeah. I lived in Tokyo for 6 months as a digital nomad (so still working for an overseas employer.) As much as I love Japan, after hearing what the work culture is like I became pretty sure I didn't want to move there permanently. Not only is it an extremely unmeritocratic environment, the pay for software engs is rubbish. As a foreigner you'll more than likely be treated like dirt and passed up on for promotions.

I think it's a shame because Japan is going through a massive tourism boom at the moment. There's surely a huge number of incredibly smart and talented people who would like to bring their skills in and help lift Japan out of its economic slumber. But Japan is still very closed off and shows no signs of wanting to modernise.

[adrianN]

I’ve heard people argue that Japan stays appealing because it is closed off and puts effort into maintaining their culture instead of modernizing into a generic western melting pot.

[rbanffy]

Moving to a different culture and adapting to it is a great way of shaking up your brain.

Moving between very different cultures is a challenge, but the rewards are accordingly nicer, but it really sucks when the new culture doesn’t welcome and integrate you into it.

[adrianN]

It is difficult for a culture to find a good balance between openness and conservation.

[rbanffy]

Some mixing is unavoidable. For instance, here in Ireland, an increasing number of Irish natives are aware of a Brazilian delicacy called "pão de queijo", thanks to the massive number of Brazilian residents. The way student visas work here is that they allow part-time work, and lots of Brazilians go for food services, bringing some of our recipes with them.

Between Hungary and Turkey, something similar happened with the pogacza. I brough some cheese pogacza to the office and a Turkish colleague immediately recognized what it was. We couldn't really figure out which culture it comes from, but we agree it's delicious and dangerously addictive.

[cedws]

I think it's possible to open up without swinging the doors wide open like we have in the UK. There's also the argument that on Japan's current course, there won't be much culture left in a century due to population decline. Japan needs to very quickly correct course without completely submitting to cultural replacement.

[satvikpendem]

It's worth living in Japan if you can control your work schedule, by working for a remote Western employer that may not know nor care that you're outside the West, or by having your own startup and product. Otherwise I'd agree.

[cedws]

Yes, those are the only circumstances I'd recommend for staying in Japan, but they're only short term (1 year or less.) Working holiday is also nice if you're young. I met a few people working in hostels doing it, obviously doesn't pay much but gives you a place to sleep and a means to stay in the country for a while.

[lucyjojo]

I'm always puzzled by these comments because my personal experience (and those of my foreigner dev friends) is kinda the opposite.