[jongjong]

You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something but your country isn't the best thing to die for.

The problem with your country (at least the vast majority of countries) is that it doesn't care about you. It's just too big to care. It has almost nothing to do with you.

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that people feel some affiliation with their country. For the vast majority of people, the relationship is akin to an abusive boyfriend/girlfriend who takes your money and ignores your existence.

It only reciprocates for a tiny number of people at the very top; everyone else is delusional.

The slots at the top are extremely limited. The country should never be the focus; people should engage with local community instead. The country can only be appreciated in the context of a local community.

[AuthAuth]

Imagine your country is a nice place with nice values might be hard to imagine for Americans. You fight so that it remains that way for future generations. Countries can cease to exist.

[jongjong]

I get it but I don't buy this. You don't need to fight for this. You just need to live according to your values.

My ancestors' country had (and still have) nice values. Used to be under the control of France, then switched to British control, then back to French control. This happened without any war or fighting. Nothing changed for the people. They even kept speaking French. Many got rich still; just had to decide which parasite to pay tax to.

Before they learned this, they had actually fought wars against the British, but for what? The British later ended up protecting them. Protecting their own tax proceeds, really...

If the people are strong-willed and have a strong sense of community and know what is actually important, the owner country doesn't really matter. People won't obey laws they don't agree with anyway. They'll just manipulate the local authorities to report whatever they want to higher ups. What is the parent country going to do if they don't get the results they want, kill everyone in the country?

It's like having a donkey, you know you can't win with it.

It's the reason why US failed to maintain control in Iraq and Afghanistan. The people didn't need to fight to reclaim their country. In spite of massive military power asymmetry. This effect works with large populations and small populations. What more proof do we need? Fighting exists just to sell weapons IMO.

It's crazy to me that everyone assumes that you have to obey authority. People forget this only happens with consensus. You can just pretend to obey, do the bare minimum and let the authorities blame bureaucracy. Anyway these big governments have real major bureaucratic struggles internally anyway so they're used to it.

[actionfromafar]

That recipe doesn’t work universally, there are wars of expulsion and extermination.

[jongjong]

If your values are non-violent and you're value producers, that doesn't happen. Sure, there can be situations where the land itself is valuable and the people on it are only a liability, but usually the value is in the people themselves.

[actionfromafar]

Sometimes, people aren't valued. Consider the Holocaust, Rwanda and the Culture Revolution.

[minihoster]

I think you underestimate just how well national pride works on people. It's an amazing proposition - you get to identify with the struggles and achievements of millions of people over decades just by being born in some spot. This can be useful/motivating in moderation, but it's obvious how dangerously easy it is to abuse by nationalists. Russians rather feel mighty dying in a pointless war than admitting they will never be a superpower. Americans would rather reminisce about the 1950s than doing anything to fix the many ways we've stagnated. Humans are willing to accept a lot of suffering instead of feeling humiliated.

[z2]

Exactly, where it crosses into ultranationalism, it's a coping drug. You may be a nobody on all other scales, but darned if you can't stand under the flag of your country and truly _be someone._

[jongjong]

Good point. Meanwhile you can often lead a good life if you're willing to forego status and try to be objective about your accomplishments. Let others believe what fantasies they want. It's always a fantasy anyway.

Everyone is clutching onto narratives and blind-spots.

[bccdee]

> You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something

It's very easy to die "for something" when you're already dying. The question is how much of your life you're willing to give up for something by dying right now.

People talk about "dying for your country" as if it's all one and the same, but some people die for the people in their country and some people merely die for the interests of their state.

[enaaem]

How about dying for Israel?