[orwin]

Do you agree there is a meaningful difference between the US feeling forced to follow Israel because of their own political choices, and the US being controlled by Israel ? The outcomes are the same, but acknowledging why and how the US got themselves involved is key if people don't want this kind of situation again.

[watwut]

Israel completely depends on USA. USA are the ones with all the power in that particular relationship. There is no way for Israel to force USA. USA has a lot of ways to force Israel.

USA can be convinced to do something by Israel, but not forced.

[orwin]

Here is my argument:

Prior political choices prevent the US from saying to Iran "Sorry that Israel attacked you, that's unfair, please don't attack our base, we won't fund Israel military anymore, and we remove the embargo".

Hence, since during the previous ceasefire, Iran told the US "If Israel break the ceasefire again, we will attack your ME bases", US was "forced" into preventive strikes against Iran military installations, and into an offensive war, without any preparation.

I'm not a huge fan of this US admin _at all_, but in this very case, the amateurism isn't caused by the childishness and the whininess (is that a word? i mean constant whining and victimization) of the US admin and their overall lack of skills, but by the fact they were forced into it without preparations.

Is that argument more clear? I feel you talked past my argument which is probably my fault since i have trouble expressing myself without thinking for hours beforehand

[watwut]

I dont find that believable argument at all. USA in fact can not attack along of Israel. Nothing prevents then from removing embargo, tho that is not relevant.

USA can tell Israel to not attack. Full stop. It can even tell Israel they will give them less support. And dont tell me that Trump administration would be afraid to pressure or even bully other goverment. If USA did not wanted this war, it would not happened.

Third, USA had option of approaching negotiations seriously. It simply did not.

> US was "forced" into preventive strikes against Iran military installations, and into an offensive war, without any preparation.

This is nonsense. It was not preventive attack, it was active first strike attack against opponent that is not much threat right now.

USA was not in defense. It was not forced to attack either.

[8note]

both secretary of state and the majority leader in congress have gone to the press giving a story of Israel forcing the US into it.

maybe theyre lying; both were very nervous while telling the tale

[watwut]

So, what was the actual threat supposed to be about? Israel will stop defend USA? Common.

But to your other point, they both lie often and confidently. If they are nerveus, they probably just thought they look like idiots (regardless of whether they are saying the truth).