[fc417fc802]

Notably Washington state legislated the same change to DST years ago (instead of standard time, the morons!) but the federal government never approved the switch. AFAIK it's still pending. I remain unclear what authority the federal government has over such a matter and why Washington (or any other) state has opted to respect it. What are they going to do if a state just ignores them and switches their clocks?

Sometimes I get the impression that the spirit of states rights in the US has died.

[wahern]

> I remain unclear what authority the federal government has over such a matter

It's actually an enumerated power under Article I, Section 8, Clause 5:

> [The Congress shall have Power...] To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; ...

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S8-C5-1/...

[troad]

I'm surprised that would be interpreted to include time zones. Units of time, arguably (measures), but time zones? Time zones are not a measure of anything. Time zones do not follow on from definitions of units of time, any more than road speed limits follow on from the definition of a mile.

I would be less surprised if it were the commerce power used to uphold time zone coordination - for the promotion and regularity of interstate commerce etc etc. Tenuous, but consistent with a lot of the other nonsense that's been hung from the commerce power over the years.

Then there's the actual enforcement angle - time zones are just a social convention whereby people in a given area pretend that the time is slightly different than it 'really' is (local solar time). There's no reason local / state government and businesses can't post / operate on different hours, and leave federal bodies to operate on whatever 'federal time' they want. This already happens in parts of the world where the official time is locally inappropriate, such as Eucla in Australia or Xinjiang in China.

Obviously the optimal solution here is to coordinate a time change at all levels of government, but failing that there are other options.

[wahern]

I don't think there've been many court cases exploring the meaning of "[to] fix the Standard of Weights and Measures", and probably none as it regards time. And in the modern era the Commerce Power would probably be sufficient on its own. SCOTUS has suggested that under exiting precedent Congress would have the power to grant copyrights and patents under the Commerce Clause, and so the Copyright and Patent clauses today act more like restrictions on Congressional power.

But I don't see a problem relating time zones to measurement. Part of the authority to standardize measurement is the ability to dictate the manner and means of determining a quantitative value. Under the Weights and Measures clause I think Congress can regulate things like scales, including their precision and accuracy, at least in so far as they claim to provide a measurement of a Federally standardized unit. You might intuitively think the only reasonable end to such power is using it to improve and mandate ever greater precision and accuracy. But sometimes too much precision and accuracy is a bad thing--it can create transactional friction. Case in point, when 12PM noon varied between every town it become increasingly problematic as the speed of long-distance transportation improved, i.e. the rail roads. So the solution was to mandate worse accuracy.

Relatedly, there's a whole separate question of what time means. Most HN readers understand time in the scientific sense, and think of time in the sense of the SI second. But civil time used for general daily life has a slightly more nuanced meaning. That said, UTC/TAI time is very much like time zones in the sense of fudging accuracy. Modern clocks and gravimeter, even the kind regular people can buy for a few hundred or thousand dollars, are precise enough to be able to distinguish local time dilation. So the time passing in your living room is actually different from UTC/TAI. But think of how complex and, for the most part, useless it would be to try to "solve" that discrepancy by trying to integrate that reality in the general definition of civil time.

Also, AFAIU the authority to standardize measurement, and time specifically, operates more as a prohibition on states imposing their own mandates. See, generally, the Legal Tender Cases for the push and pull between various powers allocated between the federal government and the states.

[arrowsmith]

They measure the number of minutes since sunrise.

[nairboon]

Which changes every day.

[throw0101c]

If US states want to get rid of time switches they are free to go to year-round Standard Time (like Arizona).

[seniorsassycat]

Just switch to the +1 standard time. WA can switch to MST, which is equivalent to PDT.

It still requires federal approval, but from Sec Transit instead of Congress

[fc417fc802]

You're saying the federal government granted blanket authorization to switch to the one? So the only reason states wait on authorization is merely obtusely insisting on the wrong choice? (In addition to being impotent.) The more I learn about this issue the more things I find to be angry about.

[tempestn]

Permanent DST being the "wrong" choice is your opinion, and a minority one. Certainly doesn't make those who disagree "morons".

[fc417fc802]

Indeed, it is my opinion. It's not in the minority so much as it runs counter to what lobbyists with vested interests have loudly promoted. Most people haven't given the matter much thought and don't have an opinion on it (let alone an informed one).

"Morons" was an overly dramatic way of putting it but it is very clearly the technically deficient choice as will be apparent to anyone who bothers to consult the history books. The US already attempted permanent DST in 1974 but quickly repealed it. Russia similarly tried it out from 2011 to 2014 before switching to permanent standard time instead. The UK also tried it at one point before abandoning it. Mexico might have tried it for the longest, from 1996 until 2022 when they too switched to permanent standard time. (Actually I'm unclear why Mexico gave it up. They're far enough south that the difference between the two shouldn't be particularly impactful.)

The correct answer here is obvious. (This being HN I guess personal political rants aren't really the thing to do so I should at least link to some actual literature on the topic. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physiology/articles/10....)

[chupasaurus]

I can attest that switch to DST was felt as a curse during winters in Moscow.

[throw0101c]

> Permanent DST being the "wrong" choice is your opinion, and a minority one.

It is the majority opinion of people that study chronobiology (circadian rhythms) and sleep researchers, as issued via their professional societies:

* https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SRBR-Statement-o...

* http://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements

* https://sleepresearchsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/...

* https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780

* https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094...

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35382618/

* https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541...

* https://www.ama-assn.org/public-health/prevention-wellness/s...

* https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss...

From a public health perspective, all-year DST is not good, and all-year Standard Time is what should be done.

[sampo]

> Certainly doesn't make those who disagree "morons".

But it makes them anti-science.

[pwg]

Yes. States are allowed to ignore "summer time" and remain on "standard time" all year round. Arizona is the usual example cited, they do not change the clocks, and remain on standard time year round.

The special auth. from the Fed's is needed to switch to "permanent summer time" (and, possibly advocating for year round "summer time" gives the state politicians cover to do nothing, because "their hands are tied...").

[TheSkyHasEyes]

I read elsewhere this may be partial reason why BC forged ahead. As Canada/US relationship is on the rocks and BC stopped waiting for the US to change.

[xer0x]

Nailed it. It's been ~5 years, and the odds of coordinating with the US grow smaller by the month.

[bonestamp2]

I think we just needed some government with the balls to go for it and everyone else on the west coast will follow. The legality of DST might be an issue in the US but if we can clear that hurdle then BC could be the catalyst.

[seanmcdirmid]

It is crazy, because there is actually a law that allows us to switch to year round PST if we want (but no one wants that), while we need congressional approval to switch to PDT year round (which is what everyone wants) and the house voted for it, but the senate simply didn't make it a priority.

[14]

The more I think about it the less sure I am if I would prefer a permanent switch to be standard or daylight time. On one hand I really dislike winter months and work starting in complete darkness. So always enjoy the time change and mornings soon after feeling brighter. But on the other hand come summer I really love getting off work and going to the beach. So I will have more sun hours this way which is big. I really thought they would split the difference and just go 30 minutes but guess that would be challenging for many reasons.

[briffle]

I believe both Oregon and Washington have passed bills, but both require CA to also pass so that the whole west coast moves. CA has still not passed a bill.

[hn_acc1]

It was only ever a thing to promote civil war grievances.

[jasonwatkinspdx]

> Sometimes I get the impression that the spirit of states rights in the US has died.

It was bullshit from day one. The origin of the state's rights argument was slave state's attempting to force free states to round up fugitive slave and return them to the slave states.