[dangero]

The problem we will encounter with self driving cars is that while they will make less mistakes than humans, they will make different mistakes.

Humans will continue to have a hard time accepting this tradeoff.

I live in LA where Waymos are now on every street. My experience is that they don’t respect human courtesy, so for example if I need to cross a lane of busy traffic, a human may brake as a courtesy to let me through. Waymos have fucked me over where a human probably would have shown some level of community and empathy.

[ibejoeb]

That courtesy is almost always bad practice and is generally unlawful. You must yield right of way to a pedestrian at a legal crossing, but california has codes that prohibit impeding normal traffic flow, including stopping in the street to wave across a pedestrian where there is no such crossing. It's especially dangerous on multi-lane roads because the stopped vehicle can blind the pedestrian to other traffic.

[AngryData]

I would dispute saying it is almost always bad practice. Sometimes it is, people do dumb stuff, but in many cases it solves problems before they become a problem to start with because most humans are pretty good at predicting how others around them will react.

Stopping in the middle of the road to save a pedestrian 3 seconds while costing 5 cars on the road to wait 10 seconds is obviously dumb, but what about recognizing the gap near you in the line of cars is the only gap around for the pedestrian waiting ahead, and either slowing down or speeding up a little bit to open that gap wider which makes everybody safer and eliminates any real braking events.

You might not notice all the things people do now to make traffic move smoothly, either intentionally or not, but something as simple as a line of robot cars spreading out on a road can cause problems when traffic levels that normally leave large gaps for easier left turns, pedestrians, poor visibility crossings, etc, instead becomes a steady spaced stream of traffic that has to be disrupted to fit those other options. Very small things can result in large traffic bottlenecks. Humans aren't immune to it, we cause out own problems with things like traffic waves, but we also solve many problems ourselves without really thinking about it.

[noduerme]

I think the comment you're responding to was referring to needing to cross a backed up lane of traffic in their car, not on foot.

[ibejoeb]

Sure, there are valid scenarios. LA certainly has some terrible and legal vehicle crossings. (The fast, windy portion of beverly ranks.) I agree that it's hard to navigate without some cooperation. It's just that almost all of the crashes I've witnessed involved someone giving a bad go-ahead.

[dangero]

I wasn’t clear, but yes I meant in a car. During morning commute there are whole hours where certain roads are gridlocked leaving no space to cross. Beverly is one example of this.

There is no way to cross unless someone yields to let you through

[noduerme]

I was a taxi driver in LA - I've lived the past 10 years in Portland. One major difference in driving style (at least before a lot of New Yorkers moved to LA) is that in LA, people merged late in a fluid style, and traffic shuffled. In Portland, people line up a mile before the sign for the exit lane, and aggressively don't let anyone in. Which means you have to be extra aggressive to get in if you don't want to wait in a voluntary Soviet line behind a hundred idiots with two brain cells and nowhere to be. Thankfully, Portlanders are all passive-aggressive, and much less likely to get out and attack you than Angelenos.

Personally I always let people in when they need to go. What does that cost me? A second or two? When people actively try to cut you off from merging it leads to more accidents and more road rage. Just merge peacefully and let people merge without getting your ego involved. That's more or less how LA used to be, at least before a million New Yorkers moved there who didn't know how to drive.

[_DeadFred_]

A lot of our society works/has less friction because of human courtesy. Systemically stamping it out of every interaction for optimization will not result in a better society.

Our systems don't cover every case, and it's better when we use human courtesy to solve the edge cases.

[rfrey]

In many places, traffic would not function if drivers did not e.g. make space for other drivers to change lanes. It's an extraordinary claim to say such behaviour is bad practice (or even illegal??)

[ibejoeb]

In that context, yes, there are certainly cases where making space is reasonable and legal, like stopping shy of side intersection while (traffic is stopped) to allow a turn.

Stopping or altering traffic isn't, though. You shouldn't stop at a green to allow another driver to maneuver for all the same reasons.

[dangero]

Imagine a street where cars are moving at 2mph because of traffic. Cars can never cross unless someone yields

[nunez]

I also hate that "courtesy." It blocks traffic behind the yielding car and is often done without considering that driver's surroundings (like impatient drivers switching lanes and speeding up to overtake the yielding car, increasing the chances of a collision with the crossing car).

[rogerrogerr]

"Courtesy causes confusion; confusion causes crashes"

[dangero]

That assumes you live in a place where the traffic system handles all edge cases

[KennyBlanken]

> The problem we will encounter with self driving cars is that while they will make less mistakes than humans

This is only true for certain self-driving cars. Tesla and Uber are among the worst, and are far worse than human drivers. Something like 10x, I believe, in terms of miles driven?

[kyleee]

Maybe there is a new product for a little robot on a leash that you send out into traffic and any autonomous vehicles will stop, and then you can proceed safely.

[fragmede]

Waymo's are not about to run a person or bicyclist over. Just walk in front of them and they'll stop for you to cross. You can always start livestreaming if you don't believe it, the insurance payout would be amazing. (Subject to the laws of physics, naturally.)

Source: Haven't been run over yet by one, and I live in one of their current markets.

[SlinkyOnStairs]

> Waymo's are not about to run a person or bicyclist over.

This has only introduced more novel problems. People can completely immobilize the vehicles by standing in front of them, or placing a traffic cone. (And while this is kind of funny when done to unused vehicles to bother a multi-trillion dollar corporation. It is not funny when it's done to harass women.)

This in turn spirals into a whole new set of political problems, because drivers are collectively quite intolerant of the pedestrians and especially cyclists they share the road with. There is a lot of pedestrian and cyclist behaviour that is curtailed by motorist bullying, which autonomous cars don't really do. (Your walking in front of them being a fine example)

Things like cyclists "taking the lane" are deeply unpopular despite being entirely legal and good road safety practice. Increased rollout of AVs will only make this more prevalent and then you'll have a whole new demographic of angry people mad that their waymo is slow because it's behind a cyclist.

[lupire]

Rolling out Waymo more broadly will help bring these criminals to justice, as there crimes will be recorded by an unflappably peaceful victim.

[SlinkyOnStairs]

I understand your sarcasm, but do understand that drivers legitimately have a lot of political weight.

"Increase the speed limits" is a classic populist policy that keeps being reimplemented (and walked back for it's impracticality) all across the world. Policies to ban cyclists are uncommon, but certainly not unheard of. One imagines the self-driving car companies won't be too bothered to fight against laws that hurt everyone but them.

[fennecbutt]

>People can completely immobilize the vehicles by standing in front of them

This is true of any vehicle lmao. Someone can stand in front of your vehicle and prevent you from proceeding and there's not a thing you can do about it.

[AngryData]

With an angry human behind the wheel you can't be assured they won't hit you on purpose or even accidentally clip you swerving around you. With a robot car designed to maximize safety, you don't really have to worry. Even if they started making robot taxis drive like assholes, the maximum payout for suing a robo taxi company for getting hit is WAY higher than some rando on the road. The guy you pissed off and ran you over for standing in the road might have just got out from a 15 year prison sentence, hates the world, and have a net worth of -$70,000, and isn't going to earn you anything besides a life long injury.

[Detrytus]

A human driver would just get out of their car and beat the crap out of you, something that Waymo is not capable of (yet).

[fennecbutt]

No they wouldn't.

I certainly wouldn't. I'm a short gay guy, plus even if I was big I don't want an assault charge; standing in front of my car doesn't give me a legal right to assault someone. From a legal standpoint (in most places) it's a deadlock.

Not every guy is big and strong and capable of or wanting to do violence.

[SlinkyOnStairs]

You wouldn't, but they key is that the cyclist/pedestrian doesn't know it's you.

Say it's 5% of drivers who are maniacs, one encounters many many cars, and the cost of misjudging this situation is "grievous injury". So the end result is people will give way to cars even when they don't have to.

> Not every guy is big and strong and capable of or wanting to do violence.

This is structurally comparable to the way women treat "all men" as "potentially violent". It's not about you per-se, just a consequence of the group you cannot be immediately separated from.

Speaking of, that's the other half. Sure you're a normal guy. You don't want an assault change. The tradeoff changes when you are at risk, when violence is being done to you. (Hence the harassment-of-women example)

Sure you're not gonna try to murder the person outside like the road-raging maniacs, but when your safety is on the line, driving dangerously close past them is on the table.

[steve-atx-7600]

You can’t expect someone to not be afraid of an autonomous vehicle that appears to be acting irrationally.

[macintux]

Good luck making eye contact with the Waymo to gain confidence that it sees you.

[rogerrogerr]

Do you want them to put googley eyes on it? If you can see it, it can see you. Pretty simple.

Eye contact matters for humans because they might be looking at their phones, or their McDonald's fries, or staring straight into the sun. None of these things happen with self-driving cars. It's a non-issue.

[NewJazz]

That would actually be great. Some kind of eye brow raise, a gesture, any recognition/indication that it perceives a life to preserve.

[bsder]

Erm, have you ever taken a Waymo and watched the detection screen?

If you can see it, it sees you. Period. I guarantee it.

It can see and gives special priority to humans. I have watched it mark people at night that I couldn't see at all.

Doing weird shit on the road? Certainly possible. Missing seeing a human? Definitely not happening.

[NewJazz]

Just because someone knows that logically, doesn't mean that it reassures them in the moment.

[1718627440]

Eye contact matters for humans, because humans can indicate that way which direction and speed they plan on moving.

[NewJazz]

Humans will continue to have a hard time accepting this tradeoff.

Are you asserting that humans should accept these, currently not fully known, tradeoffs?

[tt24]

Yes. They're safer than human drivers. Clearly the tradeoff is worth it.

[dangero]

If it results in less deaths then it seems likely to me