[sekai]

> Tell that to the 30k+ iranian protestors that were killed. > Are you actually using "in good faith" and the current horrendous iranian regime in the same sentence?

If US needs to intervene, why are they are not intervening in Ukraine? Far worse things has been happening there for 4 years.

[mupuff1234]

My point is saying that the iranian regime is doing anything "in good faith" is just beyond absurd.

They have long lost the ability to claim that any of their actions are in good faith.

[sva_]

I don't think the Ukranian people are being supressed by their own gov

[no-name-here]

Is the argument that the U.S. should only militarily intervene when conflicts are internal within another country, as opposed to when it’s one country invading another? As that’s the opposite of the established international laws around prohibiting one state from attacking another vs the principle of non-intervention.

[CapricornNoble]

1. The Russian position in 2014 was that the Ukrainian people in Donbas were being oppressed by the new Ukrainian central government.

2. There's a lot of domestic political/information suppression in Ukraine but I consider this somewhat normal for a nation in a pretty existential conflict.

3. The Ukrainian military is 70-80% conscripts, increasingly of the "forcibly mobilized" variety (look up "TCC busification" for examples), with almost all military-age males banned from leaving the country. Dudes are getting beaten up, stuffed into vans, and sent to trenches to eat Russian artillery and FABs (air-to-ground bombs)....against their will. I think that definitely counts as suppression.

[cylemons]

What is Ukraine supposed to do then?

[klibertp]

Lose. Evacuate the government. Then mount a guerrilla, and wait for an opportunity. It'll come, most likely sooner rather than later.

Why is that unthinkable? I can understand people in the US being unable to process such a scenario, but here in Europe, there's not a single nation that wasn't off the map for some time.

I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant.

[ceejayoz]

> Why is that unthinkable?

Because it’s unthinkably stupid.

> I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant.

And you imagine they won’t die in your guerrilla war? Or the next invasion after an emboldened Russia regroups?

[Sabinus]

You're suggesting a decades long guerrilla movement under occupation will be better for the Ukrainian people than conscription during an existential defensive war?

[klibertp]

In terms of the number of lives lost? Yes. Guerrilla resistance is a way of trading important advantages (like control of the territory or political legitimacy) for time and human lives. Guerrillas in a favorable environment tend to suffer much lower casualties per fighter per unit of time than trench warfare along a frontline.

It's a desperate measure, but so is snatching people from the street to bus them off to trenches.

Personally, I think people can live through almost any hell (and can make a comeback later) - unless they die, in which case they can't do anything anymore. Decades of hard times, in this view, are preferable to tens of thousands of excess deaths per year over a decade.

I understand why people are reluctant to consider this - I'm just trying to show that there are alternatives to the current situation; not strictly better, but at least presenting different trade-offs. In a situation of "existential defensive war," we should discuss all plausible options, even the most controversial ones.

[lurk2]

They haven’t had an election since the war started and routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans.

[ceejayoz]

> They haven’t had an election since the war started

Because that’s what their constitution says. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-presidential...

> routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans

Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be?

[lurk2]

> Because that’s what their constitution says.

“They have People’s Republic right there in the name, what are you people not getting about this?”

> Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be?

A violation of human dignity.

[ceejayoz]

> A violation of human dignity.

A dodge, but we can work with that.

A yes or no question, now:

Would the citizens of a sovereign nation being forced to violate their Constitution by Putin and Trump be a “violation of human dignity” too?

[lurk2]

> Would the citizens of a sovereign nation being forced to violate their Constitution by Putin and Trump be a “violation of human dignity” too?

If Ukraine was worth defending they would have no trouble finding men willing to die to defend it. It’s one of the most corrupt countries in the Western world, its women are being allowed to flee so that they can prostitute themselves to Arabs and Europeans, and it hasn’t had an election in 7 years. Zelensky attempted to take control of the country’s anticorruption bureau in July of 2025: “Many suggest the attempted purges are payback for NABU pursuing charges of illicit enrichment and abuse of office against former deputy prime minister Oleksiy Chernyshov, a key ally for the Office of the President.”[1] In November of 2025, Timur Mindich, a former business partner and close friend of Zelensky, fled to Israel after being accused of orchestrating a kickback operation in cooperation with ministers of Zelensky’s own government. [2][3].

You have the opportunity to go die for these people right now. An increasing number of men in Ukraine have decided they would prefer not to.

[1] - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-r...

[2] - https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky-associate-at-crux-of-...

[3] - https://www.uawire.org/ukraine-s-anti-corruption-bureau-to-s...

[nullocator]

What does the Iranian say? If we're all about respecting documents, we should make sure we assess them all equally. The U.S. constitution has a lot to say about many of the things that are happening right now, but those are being happily ignored. We can't even respect our own constitution, the idea that we'd respect others is laughable.

[ceejayoz]

Trump’s disregard for both constitutions is not a good reason for Zelensky to ignore his own.

[Peanuts99]

How do you even securely hold an election during a full scale war? Thousands are outside the country or on the front lines. You'd also be creating huge targets at polling stations. Luckily their constitution recognises it's a bad idea to try.

[lurk2]

> How do you even securely hold an election during a full scale war?

America managed it in 1864.

[JumpCrisscross]

> why are they are not intervening in Ukraine?

...we are? Totally insufficiently. And immaterially, now [1]. But we're still providing intelligence support.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-america-stockpiles-army-t...

[Bender]

why are they are not intervening in Ukraine?

Russia is already a nuclear power. They are also diminishing as a nation almost as fast as China.

[brightball]

Because in Ukraine if we intervene directly the US will be at war with Russia. Instead we are supplying weapons and intel.

[NicuCalcea]

> we are supplying weapons

To be more specific, since 2025, selling weapons.

"And everything we send over to Ukraine is sent through NATO and they pay us in full." - Trump

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-trumps-full-2026-...

https://app.23degrees.io/embed/j4luMuv8fnpO2frL-bar-grouped-...

[brightball]

And at that point the US had already provided about $66 billion directly.

[NicuCalcea]

Sure, that was the old US. The US that's currently invading Iran is not providing free weapons to Ukraine.

[brightball]

> "And everything we send over to Ukraine is sent through NATO and they pay us in full." - Trump

Which the US actively funds…so after a $66 billion advance now the costs are being shared by other vested countries.