[sarchertech]

>And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.

To the extent that's true, it's because they won't let you see the uyghur reeducation camps.

[analog8374]

What's the coordinates? I want to look at it on Google maps

[sarchertech]

Here you go

https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/map/?

[hungryhobo]

nice, funded by ASPI, that's all i needed to know

[sarchertech]

There could be a grand global conspiracy to push this story about how the Chinese are persecuting the Uyghurs, involving the US government, the Australian government, the United Nations, France, the UK, A Swiss journalism consortium, private companies, thousands of Chinese expats, satellite companies, newspapers, and television reports, which seems to have very little payoff because most people don't care about it at all.

Or it could be that the same government of China that less than 40 years ago admitted to killing 200 protesters and likely killed at least 2500, has severe restrictions on religious freedom, and is known for targeting family members of activists and dissidents, is also rounding up and reeducating members of a very publicly troublesome minority group.

They have a well documented history of similar tactics in Tibet over the last 75 years or so. I mean there have been over 150 Tibetans who have self immolated just in the last decade and a half as a protest against Chinese actions in Tibet. I can't think of very many acts of self-immolation protests where the target government wasn't doing something untoward, much less when there's an average of 10 per year.

Given the recent history of the Chinese government response to dissidents, and the terrorist attacks perpetuated by Uyghurs in the 2010s, I'd honestly be surprised if China didn't do something similar to what is alleged.

[hungryhobo]

Nah just the lunatic Adrian Zenz. Feel free to ignore the fact Muslim countries actually visited xinjiang and agreed there was no concentration camps. Like believe the crap you want, but Uighur language is literally on display in every road sign, every metro station, every shop. Xinjiang has the highest density of mosques in the world. College admissions offer incentives to people of Uighur origin. Ppl can just go to xinjiang and see it for themselves

[sarchertech]

Do you think that Spanish street signs and Catholic Churches in El Paso prove that the United States isn’t detaining thousands of Hispanic immigrants?

Do you think that the United States lets dignitaries from other countries tour ICE detention camps?

You think Adrian Zenz convinced dozens of respected journalists and news organizations to lie about interviewing hundreds of victims?

You think he manufactured the Xinjian police file leaks, or the China cable leaks?

You think he altered UN fertility data to show that the fertility rate in Xinjian declined by 50% in 2 years?

You think he tricked the UN in to releasing their report?

I’d also like to see a source for the most mosques claim that isn’t Chinese state media. For someone so suspicious of western media you seem to have readily swallowed actual direct Chinese government propaganda hook line and sinker.

[glenstein]

He we go with the Zenz talking point again. I've never understood the fixation, especially when most of the time when this gets talked about is drawing from a vast trove independent documents that have nothing to do with him, from everywhere from human rights, watch to the international criminal court to diverse reporting. Yet somehow the only response to all of this is Zenz, Zenz, Zenz.

Also is ASPI supposed to have a Zenz association because I didn't see one:

>We are grateful for the advice and assistance of a range of global experts on Xinjiang including Maya Wang from Human Rights Watch, Dr Timothy Grose from the Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology and Dr Darren Byler of the University of Colorado Boulder.

[3371]

There's literally someone filmed the camp and fled from China, his name is Guan Heng

[MaxPock]

We can get videos from remote hellholes of Africa like Dafur and Mali but apparently,that's too much to ask in Xinjiang.We can't even get satellite images to show us evidence of this so called wigur genocide

[sarchertech]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...

[xanthor]

If you didn't have British Crown state media wrapping a narrative around these images you wouldn't think anything of them.

[sarchertech]

Would you take a group of Swiss journalists?

https://gijn.org/stories/interview-uyghur-victims-xinjiang-p...

How about the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights?

[xanthor]

Why should I take the claims of journalists without evidence?

[sarchertech]

So here’s some of the evidence that we have

The Xinjiang Police Files: A 2022 leak of over 5,000 police photos, internal documents, and spreadsheets revealing the scale of detention, with images showing prisoners shackled, hooded, and under guard in 2018.

The China Cables (2019): Leaked, classified instructions on how to run the camps, including directives to ensure "no escapes" promote "repentance" and use full video surveillance.

Satellite Imagery Analysis: Researchers from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) identified over 380 suspected detention sites, including new construction and expansion, often featuring guard towers and razor wire.

Testimonies and Research: Former detainees have reported torture, rape, forced sterilization, and intense indoctrination to abandon their religious and cultural practices.

Government Documentation: The Karakax list, a leaked document, provided detailed, case-by-case justifications for detention, such as having too many children or wearing a veil.

Are you this incredulous when someone reports that the US locks up more Black people capita than White? Someone defending the US could make the same claims you are that everyone is out to make the US look bad. That multiple independent groups are fabricating evidence etc…

[fc417fc802]

Because it's their job? Because it's corroborated by multiple other journalists and even a UN report?

Why should I take the denials of a pseudnonymous online account without evidence?

[Thlom]

On the other hand you can travel to Xinjiang, visit mosques, Uighur museums, experience Uighur culture, observe Uighurs just minding their own business in their daily life.

[fc417fc802]

> visit mosques

Would love to know how that works in a country that outlaws christian churches that aren't tied to the state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_church_(China)

[sarchertech]

“Subjected to arbitrary arrests and forced labor, sterilizations to torture, more than one million Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and other minorities are estimated to have been locked up in so-called “re-education” camps and prisons in the region over the last decade, according to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.”

https://gijn.org/stories/interview-uyghur-victims-xinjiang-p...

[xanthor]

UN High Commissioner on Human Rights Michelle Bachelet actually visited Xinjiang and made no such assertions. Whoever did release the report you're referencing, they waited until immediately after her term ended to release it (within hours). Pretty conspicuous.

[sarchertech]

No it was actually released hours before her term ended not after. And the reason she held off releasing until the last minute is because of pressure from China to refrain from releasing it.

In addition to releasing the report she released a 131 page Chinese rebuttal simultaneously. Not the actions one would expect of a shadowy group at the UN out to get China.

[xanthor]

No it was released Sept 1 Geneva time, and her term ended Aug 31.