[_cenw]

As a "foreign national", what's the deal with making the distinction between domestic mass surveillance and foreign mass surveillance? Are there no democracies aside from the US? Don't we know since Snowden that if the US wants to do domestic surveillance they'll just ask GCHQ to share their "foreign" surveillance capabilities?

[mquander]

I think it's slightly less ridiculous than it sounds, because governments have much more power over their own citizens. As an American I would dramatically prefer the Chinese government to spy on me than the American government, because the Chinese government probably isn't going to do anything about whatever they find out.

(That logic breaks down somewhat in the case of explicitly negotiated surveillance sharing agreements.)

[bryant]

> because the Chinese government probably isn't going to do anything about whatever they find out.

This really depends. If a foreign adversary's surveillance finds you have a particular weakness exploitable for corporate or government espionage, you're cooked.

Domestic governments are at least still theoretically somewhat accountable to domestic laws, at least in theory (current failure modes in the US aside).

[elefanten]

Exactly and that danger grows as the ability to do so in increasingly automated and targeted ways increases. Should be very obvious now looking at the world around us.

Also, failing to consider the legal and rights regime of the attacker is wild to me. Look at what happens to people caught spying for other regimes. Aldrich Ames just died after decades in prison, and that’s one of the most extreme cases — plenty have got away with just a few years. The Soviet assets Ames gave up were all swiftly executed, much like they are in China.

Regimes and rights matter, which is why the democracy / autocracy governance conflict matters so much to the future trajectory of humanity.

[collabs]

Yes, exactly this.

> As an American I would dramatically prefer the Chinese government to spy on me than the American government, because the Chinese government probably isn't going to do anything about whatever they find out.

> spy on me

People forget to substitute "me" for "my elected representative" or "my civil service employee" or "my service member" or their loved ones

I, personally, have nothing significant that a foreign government can leverage against our country but some people are in a more privileged/responsible/susceptible position. It is critical to protect all our data privacy because we don't know from where they will be targeted.

Similarly, for domestic surveillance, we don't know who the next MLK Jr could be or what their position would be. Maybe I am too backward to even support this next MLK Jr but I definitely don't want them to be nipped in the bud.

[adastra22]

You’re getting many replies, and having scrolled through much of them I do not see one that actually answers your question truthfully.

The reason why there is an explicit call out for surveillance on American citizens is because there are unquestionable constitutional protections in place for American citizens on American soil.

There is a strong argument that can be made that using AI to mass surveil Americans within US territory is not only morally objectionable, but also illegal and unconstitutional.

There are laws on the books that allow for it right now, through workarounds grandfathered in from an earlier era when mass surveillance was just not possible, and these are what Dario is referencing in this blog post. These laws may be unconstitutional, and pushing this to be a legal fight, may result in the Department of War losing its ability to surveil entirely. They may not want to risk that.

I wish that our constitution provided such protections for all peoples. It does not. The pragmatic thing to do then is to focus on protecting the rights that are explicitly enumerated in the constitution, since that has the strongest legal basis.

[mothballed]

I agree with your premise because this seems to be the modern interpretation of the courts, but it is not the historical interpretation.

The historical basis of the bill of rights is that they are god given rights of all people merely recognized by the government. This is also partially why all rights in the BoR are granted to 'people' instead of 'citizens.'

Of course this all does get very confusing. Because the 4th amendment does generally apply to people, while the 2nd amendment magically people gets interpreted as some mumbo-jumbo people of the 'political community' (Heller) even though from the founding until the mid 1800s ~most people it protected who kept and bore arms didn't even bother to get citizenship or become part of the 'political community'.

[selimthegrim]

There have been cases of illegal immigrants demanding 2nd amendment rights and getting them ever since it was incorporated to the states in McDonald

[CamperBob2]

The reason why there is an explicit call out for surveillance on American citizens is because there are unquestionable constitutional protections in place for American citizens on American soil.

Those unquestionable protections are phrased with enough hand-waving ambiguity of language to leave room for any conceivable interpretation by later courts. See the third-party 'exception' to the Fourth Amendment, for instance.

It's as if those morons were running out of ink or time or something, trying to finish an assignment the night before it was due.

[mothballed]

Since at least the progressive era (see the switch in time that saved 9), and probably before, the courts have largely just post facto rationalized why the thing they do or don't agree with fit their desired pattern of constitutionality.

SCOTUS is largely not there to interpret the constitution in any meaningful sense. They are there to provide legitimization for the machinations of power. If god-man in black costume and wig say parchment of paper agree, then act must be legitimate, and this helps keep the populace from rising up in rebellion. It is quite similar to shariah law using a number of Mutfi/Qazi to explain why god agrees with them about whatever it is they think should be the law.

If you look at a number of actions that have flagrantly defied both the historical and literal interpretation of the constitution, the only entity that was able to provide legitimization for many acts of congress has been the guys wearing the funny looking costumes in SCOTUS.

[8note]

given that the US likes to declare jurisdiction whenever somebody touches a US dollar, any thoughts on why those same constitutional protections wouldnt follow?

[adastra22]

Because that's the way US courts have chosen to interpret the law. In the US legal system, it does not matter what you or I think the words could be interpreted to mean. The courts have final say, and the consensus interpretation is built from their historical decisions.

[dragonwriter]

This is a political statement directed at the US public, Congress, and executive branch in the context of a dispute with the US executive branch that is likely to escalate (if the executive is not otherwise dissuaded) into a legal battle, and it therefore focuses particularly on issues relevant in that context, including Constitutional, limits on the government as a whole, the executive branch, and the Department of Defense (for which Anthropic used the non-legal nickname coined by the executive branch instead of the legal name.) Domestic mass surveillance involves Constitutional limits on government power and statutory limits on executive power and DoD roles that foreign surveillance does not. That's why it is the focus.

[slg]

>Are there no democracies aside from the US?

If we're asking "What's the deal" questions, what's the deal with this question? Do only people in democracies deserve protections? If we believe foreign nationals deserve privacy, why should that only apply to people living in democracies?

[crazygringo]

In every country, citizens have more rights than non-citizens. The right to freely enter the country, the right to vote, the right to various social services, etc.

In the US, one of the rights citizens have is the right against "unreasonable searches and seizures", established in the Fourth Amendment. That has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to include mass surveillance and to apply to citizens and people geographically located within US borders.

That doesn't apply that to non-citizens outside the US, simply because the US Constitution doesn't require it to.

I'm not defending this, just explaining why it's different.

But, you can imagine, for example, why in wartime, you'd certainly want to engage in as much mass surveillance against an enemy country as possible. And even when you're not in wartime, countries spy on other countries to try to avoid unexpected attacks.

[roxolotl]

The US has a strong history of trying to avoid building domestic surveillance and a national police. Largely it’s due to the 4th amendment and questions about constitutionality. Obviously that’s going questionably well but historically that’s why it’s a red line.

[sheikhnbake]

Exactly. FVEYs been doing reciprocal surveillance on each other for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_s...

[gip]

The reality is that the US Constitution only offers strong guarantees to citizens and (some of) the people in the US. Foreigners are excluded and foreign mass surveillance is or will happen.

I believe every country (or block) should carve an independent path when it comes to AI training, data retention and inference. That is makes most sense, will minimize conflicts and put people in control of their destiny.

[matheusmoreira]

I believe every person should do that. LLMs should be free and run locally on our machines with no silly restrictions.

[jonstewart]

One of them is illegal for DoD to do and the other is not.

[jmyeet]

The distinction between foreign and domestic is a legal one.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the US Constitution protects any persons physically present in the United States and its territories as well as any US citizens abroad.

So if you are a German national on US soil, you have, say, Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure. If you are a US citizen in Germany, you also have those rights. But a German citizen in Germany does not.

What this means in practice is that US 3-letter agencices have essentially been free to mass surveil people outside the United States. Historically these agencies have gotten around that by outsourcing their spying needs to 3 leter agencies in other countries (eg the NSA at one point might outsource spying on US citizens to GCHQ).

[torben-friis]

Particularly so when those foreign nationals can be consumers. “fuck your basic human rights, but we can take your money just fine”.

[scottyah]

If nothing else, the USA has learned that a lot of people outside their borders do not share the same ideas on basic human rights, and most of the world hates when we try to ensure them. Some countries are closely aligned with our ideals and are treated differently. There are many different layers of this, from Australia to North Korea.

[ks2048]

Also the more the US openly treats the world like garbage, the more the rest of the world will likely reciprocate to US citizens.

It reminds me of some recent horror stories at border crossings - harassing people and requiring giving up all your data on your phone - sets a terrible precedent.

[dointheatl]

> what's the deal with making the distinction between domestic mass surveillance and foreign mass surveillance? Are there no democracies aside from the US?

I think it's just saying that spying on another country's citizens isn't fundamentally undemocratic (even if that other country happens to be a democracy) because they're not your citizens and therefore you don't govern them. Spying on your own citizens opens all sorts of nefarious avenues that spying on another country's citizens does not.

[cmrdporcupine]

I'm glad to see this as the top comment. I was, until recently, a loyal Anthropic customer. No more. Because the way non-Americans are spoken of by a company that serves an international market (and this isn't the first instance):

"Mass domestic surveillance. We support the use of AI for lawful foreign intelligence and counterintelligence missions. But using these systems for mass _domestic_ surveillance is incompatible with democratic values."

Second class citizens. Americans have rights, you don't. "Democratic values" applies only to the United States. We'll take your money and then spy on you and it's ok because we headquartered ourselves and our bank accounts in the United States.

Very questionable. American exceptionalism that tries to define "democracy" as the thing that happens within its own borders, seemingly only. Twice as tone-deaf after what we've seen from certain prominent US citizens over the last year. Subscription cancelled after I got a whiff of this a month ago.

(Not to mention the definition of "lawful foreign intelligence" has often, and especially now, been quite ethically questionable from the United States.)

EDIT: don't just downvote me. Explain why you think using their product for surveillance of non-Americans is ethical. Justify your position.

[felineflock]

That reasoning sounds confusing: are you actually in favor of US gov's surveillance on Americans?

If not, then why are you punishing that company for refusing to deal with the US gov?

Or is it just because they worded their opposition in a certain way that you dislike?

[cmrdporcupine]

It's not confused. Are you?

I object, as a non-American paying Anthropic customer, to being surveilled and then having it justified in a press release?

[felineflock]

> I object, as a non-American paying Anthropic customer, to being surveilled and then having it justified in a press release?

You genuinely think you're not already being surveilled? And that Anthropic is somehow responsible with just a few words in a press release? In what world are you living in and how is the rent there?

[_cenw]

> You genuinely think you're not already being surveilled?

"You don't like capitalism, why do you pay for things then?"

> And that Anthropic is somehow responsible with just a few words in a press release?

They seem to believe that they're a pretty important piece. That aside, this is a declaration of intent, it doesn't need to have anything to do with real-world capabilities.

Just because something will happen anyway doesn't mean you shouldn't oppose it.

[sfink]

My guess is that they can't object to foreign intelligence, and would lose negotiating ground if they even tried.

Optimistically, they can still refuse to do work that would aid in foreign intelligence gathering, by arguing that it would also be beneficial for domestic mass surveillance.

I'll admit that the phrase "We support...foreign intelligence and counterintelligence" is awful as hell, and it's possible that my apologist claims are BS. But Anthropic has very little leverage here (despite having a signed contract and so legally fully in the right), so I could see why they're desperate to stick to only the most solid objections available.

[cmrdporcupine]

It's the addition of the we support phrase in particular, and the attempt to tie that in a "democratic values" clause that is objectionable.

Not to most US citizens, I'm sure. But there's millions of non-Americans who have given them their hard earned cash. It's not a good look, and it did not need to be phrased that way as it substantially undermines the impact of their point.

[xdennis]

> what's the deal with making the distinction between domestic mass surveillance and foreign mass surveillance?

A large portion of Americans believe in "citizen rights", not "human rights". By that logic, non-Americans do not have a right to privacy.

[esafak]

This contradicts the opening of the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes all humans as possessing rights:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

[lazide]

Lots of lofty goals have been written on paper - when people take them seriously, they are even worth something.

The pendulum swings.

[ra]

100% - this is the shortsightedness and demonstrates hypocrisy.

Countries routinely use other countries intelligence gathering apparatus to get around domestic surveillance laws.

[dabockster]

In the US, we have the ability to either confirm or change a significant chunk of our Federal government roughly every two years via the House of Representatives. The argument here is that we, theoretically, could collectively elect people that are hostile to domestic mass surveillance into the House of Representatives (and other places if able) and remove pro-surveillance incumbents from power on this two year cycle.

The reasons this hasn't happened yet are many and often vary by personal opinion. My top two are:

1) Lack of term limits across all Federal branches

and

2) A general lack of digital literacy across all Federal branches

I mean, if the people who are supposed to be regulating this stuff ask Mark Zuckerberg how to send an email, for example, then how the heck are they supposed to say no to the well dressed government contractor offering a magical black box computer solution to the fear of domestic terrorism (regardless of if its actually occurring or not)?

[ApolloFortyNine]

Are all democracies allies to you?

[gmueckl]

That still doesn't justify mass surveillance.

[_cenw]

Never said that. Didn't even imply it.

[banku_brougham]

>democracies aside from the US.

I mean, I guess from '65 to around 96? We had a good run.