Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by qsera 113 days ago
Yea, semantics is important. It is not "understanding" any more than a microphone+ADC is hearing.
3 comments

The distinction you're making reads like substance dualism to me. Are you able to provide a clear and objective metric for assessing "understanding"? If not then you're just handwaving an effectively meaningless semantic distinction.
>objective metric for assessing "understanding"

It should involve consciousness. You would not call an AI reacting to red color as "seeing" red. Same thing.

And where is this objective metric for consciousness? Last I checked we didn't even have a sensible definition for it.

It seems to me you're just kicking the can.

Setting that issue aside. While I certainly don't believe LLMs to be conscious (an entirely subjective and arbitrary take on my part I admit) I don't see any reason that concepts such as "intelligence" and "understanding" should require it. When considering how we apply those terms to humans it seems to me they are results based and highly contextual (ie largely arbitrary).

>humans it seems to me they are results based and highly contextual (ie largely arbitrary).

Is that right? It seems that we generally say that "the computer is programmed to do", instead of "the computer understand" or "the computer knows", even if the programmed computer can produce the same result as a human who does it.

Of course we don't say that. You can't ask the (traditionally) programmed computer a freeform question and get a sensible answer back. We tried that for going on 50 years and it never really worked. (The highest achievement that comes to mind is answering jeopardy questions.)

You can very carefully construct a query in a dedicated language, debug that query, and get useful results back. But that's clearly just a human using a tool, not a machine exhibiting understanding or general knowledge.

Meanwhile you can ask a multi-billion parameter LLM a freeform question in ~any human language and it can produce a coherent and meaningful response. It can one shot pieces of code. Track down bugs based on compiler error messages. It might not (yet) be human level in many cases but to get hung up on that is to miss the point.

>multi-billion parameter LLM

This is equivalent to an `if` statement with multi-billion levels of nesting. It is just a "traditional program", just unimaginably huge.

Just because it is not "traditionally programmed" does not mean that it is not a really huge "traditional program".

Scaling something by many order of magnitude does not put it in a different category. A computer program, no matter how big, is still a computer program.

Language models aren’t “programmed” though.
You are right, it is worse.

It is generated by tweaking a bunch of `if` statements until the output starts to look about right.

If I “convey understanding” I transfer it from one person to another. Consciousness does not transfer with understanding.

Some people argue that consciousness emerges in early childhood. I can get an infant to understand what I am saying even if they aren’t conscious.

A microphone + ADC is hearing though, that's the whole reason we even produce microphones. So that our electronics can hear sound.
So according to you when can you qualify something as capable of hearing

1. Vibrate according input to the sound, is that hearing?

2. Generate electrical signals according to the sound, is that hearing?

3. Amplify electrical signal, does we cross the hearing mark?

4. Record the signal to a cassete tape (or use an ADC -> mp3), are we hearing yet?

5. Play it back through a speaker. Sure, we should be hearing now!

At which point exactly would you say the thing is definitely hearing?

You can reduce the human auditory process to a similar mechanical list. At which specific point would you say a human is hearing?

You've fallen into the trap of human exceptionalism but you don't seem to be aware of that fact. Are you a substance dualist or not?

>You can reduce the human auditory process to a similar mechanical list.

You can't. Because we don't know at which point sound gets registered in consciousness.

Because you can't even define what consciousness is, let alone objectively test for it.

You are entirely wrong though. You most certainly _can_ reduce the human auditory process to a (bio)mechanical list.

You have unilaterally, arbitrarily, and without justification added consciousness to that list.

>Because you can't even define what consciousness is, let alone objectively test for it.

Exactly. So if we understand "hearing" as something registered by consciousness, then implicitly things that are not conscious cannot "hear".

>reduce the human auditory process

Yes, human auditory process, yes. "Hearing" no. I see that you cleverly switched to the "auditory process" instead of "hearing". moving goal posts, are we?

Alan Watts talks about this.

If a tree falls, does it make a sound? It depends on whether there is somebody to ultimately perceive the vibrations that the falling tree made (either directly or via recording).

It is easy to answer this if we define sound as the sensation. If there is no sensor then there is no sensation. If we define sound as the vibration of air. Then yes, it will make a sound.

Most of these questions feels perplexing because some of the underlying terms are loosely defined. If we strictly define those terms, then the question answers itself.

agree to disagree. encoding a meaning is understanding. I cited a source using the word in the same way.
>agree to disagree.

Yea

>encoding a meaning is understanding.

encoding a meaning is encoding. Nothing more!

what is understanding but encoded meaning distilled into pure structure, in both cases a property of a pattern?

No need to gatekeep the word "understanding" behind subjective human experience eg qualia.

> No need to gatekeep the word "understanding" behind subjective human experience eg qualia.

Yea, I think gatekeeping is needed exactly for the same reason. Make up another word if you want..

If you make up a word, nobody will know what it means.
All of these communication can be done without using such words. It would just appear less "magical". This is done is the guise of dumbing it down, but people sometimes take it quite literally, which is what the marketing wants anyway..