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by throwaway3060 112 days ago
I thought for a bit whether I should reply to this or not. But I noticed one point in here I felt obligated to correct.

If your idea of the Nazis is their occupation in the west, then you are missing most of the picture. Their atrocities in the east are far beyond anything that has ever taken place on this Earth before or since. There is no comparison whatsoever.
1 comments
ignoramous 112 days ago
> I noticed one point in here I felt obligated to correct ... If your idea of the Nazis is their occupation in the west, then you are missing most of the picture ...

You'd be correcting Mr. Leibowitz, not me.

> no comparison whatsoever

It is not up for debate that there isn't any comparison to be made. That said, we can choose to live in our bubbles, yeah; but on the flip side, interactions with the outside world might come as a rude shock.

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throwaway3060 112 days ago
Are you trying to imply there is a comparison between Gaza and Leningrad? Where a number equal to the entire modern population of Gaza perished?

Something is very wrong with education on WW2 if anyone thinks this is a reasonable thing to say. A bubble, I suppose.

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ignoramous 112 days ago
> very wrong with education on WW2 if anyone thinks this is a reasonable thing to say

Pretty sure Leibowitz knew his WW2.

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throwaway3060 112 days ago
Given the track record of knowledge of the eastern front beyond the iron curtain, maybe he didn't. I don't know how anyone can read about Operation Barbarossa, the full scope of the plans to wipe out half of the continent, and come away with the impression that anything else, let alone a regional conflict, is even in the same universe.

But this isn't about Leibowitz, who isn't here to try to explain himself. This is about the idea that a falsity is "not up for debate".

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ignoramous 112 days ago
> This is about the idea that a falsity is "not up for debate".

Your assertion that there's "no comparison whatsoever" is of course not, when there's ample.

> who isn't here to try to explain himself

Lets just say that social norms & experiences drive much of what people believe in. One of Leibowitz's student goes:

  "I hated the notion of occupation since the very beginning. My first memories from after the 67 war are traveling with my children in the occupied territories. There were awnings over groceries stores with Hebrew lettering advertising Osem noodles. I couldn't bear it. I thought that was dreadful because I remembered German lettering in France. I have very strong feelings about Israel as an occupier."
We can guess what their "very strong feelings" might have been having experienced Nazi occupation of France during WW2.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/18/daniel-kahnema...

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throwaway3060 112 days ago
What is ample? Can you provide any evidence that Gaza can be put in the same breath as Leningrad? Russia calls all the West "Nazis", should we just listen to them?

I think you really need to learn more about the eastern front, if you're going to keep making or supporting comparisons based on incomplete knowledge. There is no comparison between the experiences in France and the experiences in Ukraine during WW2. There is a reason why historian Timothy Snyder titled one of his books "Bloodlands".

Gaza is no Leningrad or Stalingrad.

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