[gnull]

I doubt they will benefit from that integration much. But I'm pretty sure the way there will hurt. Georgia's economy is tied to Russia at the moment, and as you said Westerners are not exactly lining up to travel to Georgia and order its wine (Russians are).

The narrative "people want EU (aka freedom and democracy), but bad dictators won't let them" is a populist one. And EU has been using it like carrot and stick to steer Georgia away from Russia, disregarding the cost of it for Georgia. That time when EU declared Georgian elections illegitimate (with no actual basis provided) to me was a violation of Georgia's sovereignty.

Elections in Georgia are very competitive. I've heard that government was slowly putting pressure on media, but I don't remember anything major. Georgia could be the most democratic of ex-USSR except Baltics today.

[victorbjorklund]

Let me guess, you think that Ukrainians also really want to be part of Russia and that they are just being manipulated by Westerners and that true Ukrainians wanna be part of Russian Empire? And that Russians are just liberating them.

[fodkodrasz]

A key difference is that Ukraine has land borders with the EU, with significant potential for trade, while Georgia lacks land borders with the EU which limits the potential in harnessing the single market.

[tpm]

That's not a key difference though, that's the same situation Greece was from 1981 until 2007 when Bulgaria and Romania joined, and Ireland, Cyprus and Malta are still in this situation (unlikely to change). And again similar to Greece and Ireland Georgia has access to sea ports, and Bulgaria and Romanian ports are not far away.

[gnull]

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like trying to use tropes from a superficial Hollywood action movie in real life, not my thing.

I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family. At the same time the government ideologues are trying to indoctrinate him with nationalism to sacrifice it all for their goals. More or less the same for an average Russian in his sane mind.

I personally believe that 2014 (and not complying with Minsk 2) has set Ukraine on course that's much worse for the safety and prosperity of an average citizen (albeit better for the nationalist ideologues). Complying with Minsk 2 would give Russia a lot of control over Ukraine (pro-Russian East gets autonomy, but gets to vote on national elections), which would be bad for nationalists who are afraid (and rightfully so) of Ukraine's young statehood sink into oblivion. But would be alright for a citizen: no dramatic change, you keep gradually improving your life, no war, you don't die for nothing.

[tpm]

> I think that a Ukrainian in his sane mind would want to look at options he's dealt and pick the one that leads to most safety and prosperity to him and his family.

They have done this back in 2010's and decided that EU is the safe and prosperous future they want. In response, Russian mass murderers invaded and started to kill them. That is indeed a great ad for safety and prosperity inside the Russian world: you will be miserable and we will kill you whenever we feel like it.

Stop apologising pure evil.

[BrenBarn]

Do you think that it is meaningful to think about things being good or evil in a manner that is separate from what is "safe" or "prosperous"? If someone points a gun at you and demands all your money, the safe thing is to give it to them. Does that mean it's a good outcome for all?

[ahf8Aithaex7Nai]

It is productive to think about the world in terms of good and evil. But if you really engage with more complex events in an intellectually honest way, you will always find that they cannot be easily mapped onto the poles of geopolitical conflicts, as you would like them to be, if I am interpreting the thrust of your question correctly.

If someone points a gun at you, if the threat seems credible, and if you are defenseless against it, and if you would rather be shot than hand over your wallet, then I can only interpret that as false pride, but not as rational behavior and certainly not as ethical behavior. This is all the more true if you are not making this decision for yourself alone.

It is not heroic to die because you did not want to give in out of personal pride, national consciousness, or other false ideals. It is heroic to accept a loss of face in such a difficult situation in order to avert or minimize harm to yourself and others.

[gnull]

I do believe that the discussion of good and evil is a meaningful one, but it's nuanced and we must be extremely careful with definitions and not to confuse ethics debate with irrational emotions.

If someone points a gun at me, I give the money. If life is a strategy game, then this is the moment where you need to sacrifice a piece in order for the game to even continue. And money is usually a pawn in the big picture of life. I may feel it's unfair or that my ego/honor is hurt, but I'd work though that with my therapist, analyze it philosophically and decide what to do next instead of responding emotionally.

I personally don't value nationalist sentiment. From a humanist perspective, associating yourself with one specific nation and making it your goal to serve the elites who actually control it is unjustifiable. There are things I'd consider good and evil, but they're much more universal and not tied to one's birthplace, taste or mood. Education, progress, science are good to me. So if something damages these, I may call it evil.

Ukraine is not one of these though, it is a conflict where principals are fighting for selfish interests, while working their propaganda machines very hard to convince us that their goals are actually universal and humanistic, to harvest us as a resource. Depending on which bucket you ate your slop from, you get one bias or another. As an average citizen, you should not fool yourself thinking that you're one with something great that you must sacrifice yourself for it, and don't full yourself thinking you're serving some great good.

[kakacik]

For some reason, non-trivial amount of people prefer living in freedom instead of oppression, heck even risk their lives to have a better future for themselves and their children. russia offers none of that even to core russians, its a neonazi oligarch mafia state that treats its own citizens like disposable garbage, the minorities in far regions even much worse. I've grown up during communism in one of their subjugated vasal states, and we were basically in concentration camp - no movement outside the borders even within eastern bloc unless approved by regime, no freedom of thought or expression, any dissent was crushed brutally. Their troops in our country were around 5% of our population by numbers just to make sure there are no funky freedom ideas happening.

If you ever cared about history you can trivially find absolutely horrible things russians/soviets (always coming from moscow which always sets the tone) did consistently to Ukraine. If you ever care about facts you could trivially check how russian oppressors behave on conquered ukrainian territories these days - mass executions of civilians, torture chambers in every second home, old grannies shot in the back of their head from point blank range with hands tied behind their backs, lying in mass graves - the stories around 2023when Ukraine managed to free up some territory were pretty consistent.

So no, you are incorrect, if you ever cared about the topic you would know it pretty well. Or you know it and try to make some soft influence on the topic. Unfortunately russia is such a horrible actor these days, at this point universally and globally despised so that it became an insult to be called russian or associated with it in most places around the world. Their own doing, and when facing ridiculous defeat and humiliation they just double down in that clown theatre.

The fact that most russians still support invasion and random independent polls end up with consistent strong support for war and all ridiculous russian claims, leaves practically no hope for their future. Cancer of the humanity at this point, its easier to have more respect for North Korea regime.

[riffraff]

It's not the EU, OSCE reports the same.

> Elections in Georgia are very competitive. I've heard that government was slowly putting pressure on media, but I don't remember anything major.

The OCSE report on the 2024 election was that they were significantly biased[0]

> Reports of pressure on voters, particularly on public sector employees, remained widespread in the campaign. This, coupled with extensive tracking of voters on election day, raised concerns about the ability of some voters to cast their vote without fear of retribution. The legal framework provides an adequate basis for democratic elections, but recent frequent amendments marked a step backwards, raising concerns over its potential use for political gain. Preparations for the elections were well-administered, including extensive voter education on the use of new voting technologies. A significant imbalance in financial resources and advantage of incumbency contributed to an already uneven playing field. The polarized media environment and instrumentalization of private outlets for political propaganda affected impartial news coverage, hindering voters’ ability to make an informed choice. Effectiveness of campaign finance oversight was undermined by limited enforcement, and concerns over the impartiality and political instrumentalization of the oversight body.

And in 2025, OSCE again complained about the democratic limitations to protest[1]

> “Peaceful protesters in Georgia continue to be detained, sentenced, and fined for exercising their rights. The authorities have an obligation to implement their OSCE human rights commitments and international obligations, including respect for the right to peaceful assembly”, said Maria Telalian, ODIHR Director. “I would like to urge once again the Georgian authorities to ensure that civil society and human rights defenders are not targeted and that their voices are heard, as their work is crucial in fostering a vibrant democratic society.”

We can agree this is still a western-oriented view, but I think it's pretty undisputable that Georgia in 2026 is a less open society than Georgia in 2016.

[0] https://www.osce.org/sites/default/files/f/documents/1/6/584...

[1] https://odihr.osce.org/odihr/598675

[gnull]

I don't like using "western-oriented" as synonym for free/democratic/good, but otherwise I agree it's gotten worse. Your use of the word "backsliding", I think, was appropriate.

Are we talking about EU spokesperson calling Georgian elections illegitimate? If so, I believe your quotes show that there's no basis for that claim. The OSCE specifically says that, despite a bunch of concerns, Georgia's legal framework is "adequate". To me, that reads as "it passes the bar".

[Tade0]

> The narrative "people want EU (aka freedom and democracy), but bad dictators won't let them" is a populist one.

Former eastern block members that are currently in the EU beg to differ.

It's no accident that there's such a developmental gap between those of the former communist states which turned to the west vs those who remained in Russia's sphere of influence.

You can't meaningfully prosper with Russia.

[CjHuber]

It's terrible that people think like that, especially in Georgia where they are still not tied to the debt fueled pyramid scheme that is the EU.

They still think of Europe as how it was 20 years+ ago, they always only look at the surface and never if the whole concept really works out long term.

[victorbjorklund]

Russia is a tiny tiny economy built on corruption. Their whole economy is about selling energy. and right now their economy is failing. They're exporting less and less and less. They even have to import fuel because they can't produce enough for their own economy.

[lukan]

"They still think of Europe as how it was 20 years+ ago, they always only look at the surface and never if the whole concept really works out long term."

Poland today seems in a way better spot than in was 20 years ago, so it seems it worked out for them. Likewise all the other eastern EU members where I travelled around. As soon as I left EU territory, things looked way worse.

[misja111]

And the alternative is ... Russia? A corrupt dictatorship whose economy is kept alive with government war spending?

[meindnoch]

Hi, fellow glavset worker! How's the weather in St. Petersburg today?

[penetrarthur]

I've been to Georgia 10 years ago and there were a lot of tourists from Germany and France. Both the buses with organized trips for retired people and youngsters renting AirBnbs for cheap.

The problem we faced was with the inconsistency in price/quality in restaurants and services. Some places are really cheap - a huge dinner for two in a "I want this, this and this and two bottles of wine" manner costed 25EUR, while a 15 minute transfer could cost 50EUR. This inconsistency is something that leaves a bad aftertaste for many tourists, who would otherwise want to go there again and again to enjoy the beautiful nature, food, wine. And the tap water is literally Evian. That was in Kutaisi.

If it wasn't for the sudden grab of power fueled by Russian money and the influx of people fleeing from Russia because of war, give Georgia another 10-20 years, and the living standards would rise dramatically. Similar to how it happened in early 2000s.

[gnull]

What did the ratio of European tourists to Russian look like?

Not sure what grab of power you're referring to.

The inflow of Russians was a boost for Georgia. These are whole IT companies that moved with workers, high-paying jobs and taxes. Many of pro-Western views and European expectations of living standards (because they're from Moscow and St. Petersburg). Check specialty cafes in Tbilisi today and see when they opened. These are the white people with guilt syndrome who will sign up to Georgian language classes to show respect to the local culture. Hell, I'm sure you can see a change in people's average views on LGBT rights since 2022, since Georgia is known to be quite patriarchal homophobic.

[penetrarthur]

There were not a whole lot of Russian tourists 10 years ago because the memories from Russian invasion of 2008 were still fresh.

I'm not saying that inflow of Russians is particularly bad, it just raised the prices of everything very significantly, and together with the pro-Russian government and reversal in pro-European development, the European tourist influx is stagnant at best.

[gnull]

Oh sure, I can believe that. It still seems to me like a sign of Georgia's economy strengthening. Many people with buying capabilities which actually settle, not just come occasionally for cheap stuff. (Looking at the thread's context broadly) plus one for closer ties with Russia.

[simion314]

Oh, is the CIA at it again? brainwashing people to hate the good old Ruzzian empire and the tzar? If only those Georgians could travel to Ruzzia and Europe and make their own minds if they want to be like Ukraine and Belarus that sucked on Putin or they want to be like Poland or Romania ... /sarcasm

No idea dude why all this KGB attempts to pretend that Ruzzia is some kind of big nice brother to Georgia after they fucking invaded them and grabbed their lands , the big brother is a bit violent if he drinks too much and unfortunately he is always drunk on power and dreams of making the empire great again ?