[tantalor]

I'm a bit torn on this because (at least in the sci-fi utopia stories) when a critical mass of people are recording full time then interpersonal crime and anti-social behavior is strongly discouraged. It's like an honor-based culture at scale.

[emptybits]

> It's like an honor-based culture at scale.

Except the basis of that culture would not be honour, would it? A critical mass of people scrutinizing and reporting others' actions might lead to a compliance-based culture. It's different IMO. i.e. intrinsic motivation to behave well (honour, morality, decency) versus extrinsic motivation to behave well (fear of unpopularity, law enforcement, mob reaction, etc.)

[pibaker]

It's like how people misunderstand trust. "I trust open source software because I can review the code." No you don't. If you need to review the code then you are already not trusting it. Same deal with "honor" — the entire point of honor is you don't need eyes everywhere to look for misbehavior. You trust people to do the right thing. There is no trust in a police state.

[hoten]

Right. God help you in such a society if the power goes out.

[zephen]

I think you're missing the point. Or, on re-reading, the parent is missing the point.

"Honor culture" or "Culture of honor" is the term for people who are thin-skinned, quick to offense, and worried more about appearances than substance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

It's all about a shame-based society. When someone is made to feel ashamed, they might lash out. It's practically the opposite of guilt, which is directed inwardly.

At the margins, a shamed person might commit mass murder, while a guilty person might commit suicide.

Before you get to the margin, both guilty people and shamed people might alter their behavior in beneficial ways, but they do it for subtly different reasons.

[emptybits]

Thanks. I had to be reminded about that phrase "honor culture" and, yes, I've heard that definition before.

I was focused on how I think an "honourable person" behaves, which is ... IMO ... someone who behaves well regardless of whether or not someone is watching them. i.e. being guided by a personal moral compass, without cultural shame, guilt, government laws, religious conventions, or physical fear being primary motivators

But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart. Cheers.

[zephen]

> But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart.

That's obviously part of it, but not the entirety of it. Guiding your own behavior is different than feeling compelled to also dictate others' behavior. Honor culture is usually putatively religious, yet is diametrically opposed to "judge not lest ye be judged."

To be fully immersed in it is to feel personally slighted by any perceived transgressions against the normal order of things, and to have zero sense of proportion about which things are truly harmful to all of us, and which things are simply not how we would do things or prefer things to be done.

[jibal]

You were right, zephen is wrong. The "honor" of "honor killings"--which is about prestige within certain sick societies, has nothing at all to do with the notion of being honorable--that is, acting with integrity.

[pityJuke]

Yes look at this article showing all of the wonderful anti-social behaviour prevented by smart glasses: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23ke7rm7go

(hint: smart glasses encourage anti social behaviour for online clout.)

[phoronixrly]

Which sci-fi utopia stories exactly are you referring to? Please remind me, because all the scifi with ubiquitous surveillace I recall are about dystopias instead.

[morkalork]

Right, this is more like Black Mirror S1E3 "The Entire History of You"

[tantalor]

I can't recall exactly but it may have been The Light of Other Days

[r2_pilot]

I believe The Light of Other Days has slow-glass that you expose to a scene, it drinks it in, and then plays it back later.

[burkaman]

Mass recording discourages social behavior, not anti-social behavior.

[drawfloat]

Recording people going about their day is anti social behaviour.

[roughly]

50 years ago anti-social behavior included homosexuality.

[throwway120385]

Also included drinking from the fountain or sitting in seats or eating at a restaurant with people colored differently from you. I wonder what we're going to make "antisocial" in the next 50 years and whether or not we'll be punishing people for things we'll consider benign again in 75 years. The whole "let's surveil everything to stop all antisocial behaviors" might be going too far just like the idea that everyone should open carry to reduce crime.

[tclancy]

Can you show your math on how an example of the opposite of what the person you are responding to you can also mean the same thing? Feel free to skip if you live in a non-Euclidian geometry, but the OP was saying such a thing would have been likely to get people killed in the past for violating a society's mores.

[AlecSchueler]

Would you consider East Germany a sort of social Utopia?

[jibal]

That's the opposite of honor-based, and those stories are warnings about going down that path.

[zephen]

"Honor-based" has a specific meaning, and it is not good.

If the parent is torn about whether this is good or bad, they're really not paying attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni...

[jibal]

P.S. The response to my comment is complete nonsense. "honor-based", as used here to mean acting with integrity, has nothing at all to do with honor killings.

[jibal]

Again, "honor-based" as used in this discussion is about integrity and has nothing to do with cultures of honor ... notably the word "based" doesn't occur anywhere in the cited material. No one is trying to change anything but someone is trolling hard (and not acting with integrity), and threats about things not going well are unwelcome.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/honor

> 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions.

Enough (more than enough) said. Over and out forever.

[zephen]

P.P.S.

"Honor-based" has a historic meaning. It is you who are attempting to change it.

That...

Usually doesn't go well.

https://social.psych.iastate.edu/about-my-research/research-...

[toomuchtodo]

https://www.wired.com/2013/12/glasshole/

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glasshole

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[thomassmith65]

It will be a delight for anyone who ever wished there existed footage of every time they vomited in public or face-planted after tripping on a cobblestone.

[Klaster_1]

Honor culture is what happens when there's no reliable institutions or evidence, so people have to defend reputation themselves - usually with retaliation and interpersonal violence. Always-on cameras are the opposite idea: enforcement moves outside the individual, which is basically how honor cultures stop being a thing.

[bryanrasmussen]

from my recollection in most of the stories that is the primary starting point of the narrative but as the story goes along it turns out what you have is a dystopia, which is what it looks like we would actually get.

[Etheryte]

Firstly, fear and honor are far from being the same thing. Second, we already have this in our society today via smartphones and things have not changed for the better. If anything, society is more torn than ever.