[apical_dendrite]

There's an old interview on C-SPAN's BookTV with a CIA polygrapher. He seems to genuinely believe in the validity of the polygraph, but watching the interview, I was convinced that the only value comes from intimidation and stress.

(all-caps bad transcription)

> THE ESSENCE OF A POLYGRAPH TEST IS IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE BY FAILING A POLYGRAPH TEST IF YOU WILL, OR SOMETHING TO GAIN BY PASSING IT, THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE POLYGRAPH EFFECTIVE. WITHOUT THE FEAR OF DETECTION IT IN A SIMPLE WAY AS I CAN PUT IT THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT WORK. YOU HAVE TO BE AFRAID. IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BY TAKING THE POLYGRAPH TEST THAN THE PRESSURE IS NOT ON YOU. BUT AS I SAID THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU WORK. IT HAS TO BE PROTECTION MORE THAN GILTS. NOW YOU MAY FEEL GUILTY, BUT FEAR OF DETECTION IS THE OVERRIDING CONCERN IN IN A POLYGRAPH TEST

https://www.c-span.org/program/book-tv/gatekeeper/180053

[Stevvo]

It sounds like religion; it only works if people believe in it.

[prewett]

Maybe Reformation religions require belief, but the paganism was a set of rituals known to work (by virtue of having worked before), sort of a like a spiritual experimental science. Belief was not required.

Religions don't necessarily work because people believe in it, either. There are a number of religious sects that started with end of the world prophecies.

I think that religions work the opposite way: people believe in them because they work. Since the purpose of religion is generally to explain the nature of reality and how to flourish in it, it needs to work for you. If it doesn't, you either just go through the motions, or quit and find a different religion (or swear off religion, which is sort of the same thing).

[sigwinch]

Reminds me of Julius Caesar describing the druids. Part of his political career meant precisely performing important orthopraxy. He probably didn’t meet a druid, but amazingly described them playing the same role he did as Pontifex Maximus.

The orthopraxy requiring those precision rituals, take Rome and Greece, had little or maybe no mandatory beliefs. City-state-sized gods in Mesopotamia probably functioned the same way. Traditions still have precise orthopraxy today. But we talk about differences in belief whereas Caesar doesn’t even acknowledge any.

[bizzletk]

Would you mind expanding on the scientific-ness of paganism? That sounds really interesting!

[lucketone]

Charitable read, would suggest slight touch of tongue in a cheek.

A bit of spelling it out

Point-1. People just interpreted that paganism works.

E.g. Somebody made offering to gods, and year later won a war - proof.

Point-2 paganism had this transactional notion with gods giving and taking based on your offerings.

While christianity on the other hand does not promise anything good in this life (the only promise being: bear all the bad things in this life, you will be rewarded in the afterlife), so there can’t be proof.

[lucketone]

Or like currency.

[knallfrosch]

That's the point though. The testers wouldn't actually abuse their victims without the conviction of doing something righteous. Or they would, accidentally or intentionally, spill the secrets.

But if you make even the instruction material lie, then there is nothing that could be leaked and "expose" the system.