[saubeidl]

Help me understand your thinking. I was very against Brexit (and still am). What is there to be gained, in your opinion?

In my view, you traded being one of the leading voices in what is increasingly shaping up to be one of the world's superpowers for being a somewhat isolated middle power, nostalgic for its former glory.

Why would that be worth it?

[sgt]

UK did not need the EU for trade agreements. Those can be set up separately. There were a number of examples where the UK kept losing control, and instead having the EU try to determine the direction.

This led to loss in sovereignty and freedom. Sadly though it doesn't seem like the UK politicians are taking advantage of this (regulatory, laws, borders, immigrations etc) just yet, but at least now it's possible.

My point is: How can you become a superpower again if your foot is chained to a sluggish red tape monster like the EU? Even Norway recently learned that the EEA is not fully respected by the EU (ferroalloy imports).

I think you - and seemingly most others, are focusing on the short term downsides and negative economic impact.

But that would have happened regardless. Now it's up to the UK to try to increase productivity again, and only then Brexit will make sense. As mentioned, this will take 15 years at minimum.

[ksec]

I dont disagree with you on the chain of thoughts, the only problem is your thesis assumes UK could go back to its glory and superpower. Remembered by many during and after the World War II. And innovate to stand on its own, without the support of EU.

All of that is theoretically possible. And a very admirable goal to have. The problem is modern Britain is no longer what it once was. From Strategy to execution it is increasingly rare to find a field where they lead, and more often then not talents that produces value are captured by the US.

The current climate, culture and geopolitical issues suggest it will take much longer than 15 years, likely a whole generation cycle roughly 30 years. And depending on how you count it we are at 6 - 10 years already.

[sgt]

> From Strategy to execution it is increasingly rare to find a field where they lead, and more often then not talents that produces value are captured by the US.

Yes, you're right. That's a major concern.

[dxdm]

Of course you can now set up your own trade agreements, but so can Fiji, I suppose. The point is that you have a lot less negotiating power going it alone, instead of as part of an economic superbloc that you can influence as one of its biggest members.

The time of individual European "great powers" has long gone, but somehow, large fractions of the respective populations do not realize it. Band together, or be swept aside. That nationalistic reflex is not helping.

[JCattheATM]

The UK never can be a superpower again, not in an age of USA and an emerging China and India.

[tim333]

Never is a long time but doesn't look like it's happening in a hurry at any rate. The UKs rise was based on leading the industrial revolution but it's a bit lagging in the AI one. The few leading companies we produce like Deepmind and ARM get bought by the Americans.

[JCattheATM]

The UK has less chance at becoming a superpower than Canada or Australia, neither of which are in the race. If the EU becomes more cohesive, it might, and then the UK will be the smaller country allying itself with a superpower for protection.

[jopsen]

Institutions like the EU are hard to build. It's easy to leave or destroy an institution. Much harder to reform or improve it.

The idea that we should have free trade and movement within Europe is not bad. Even unified regulation, etc.

Otherwise, we'll never have to scale to be competitive in the world.

The regulation could be better, less red tape. But that's always the case, everywhere.

But at the end of the day there isn't going to be an alternative to the EU in Europe. So it's better to remain in, and try to improve (yes, this is hard and slow).

The alternative is nothing, maybe a few remote trading partners, but physical proximity matters if you want industrial integration/growth.

[drcongo]

> This led to loss in sovereignty and freedom

I think you need to expand on this into some kind of actual, tangible result, this is just feelings. And even for feelings, it's nonsense - before Brexit my kids could legally move and work anywhere in the EU, how are they more free now?

[sgt]

Indeed more difficult but shouldn't be an issue, just a bit more admin work to apply for visas etc.

[JCattheATM]

Visas that you are no longer guaranteed, lol.

It's literally all downsides, which you (not you personally) agreed to because of ego, thinking you can go back to a time when 'the sun never sets', when in actuality you've hastened much longer nights.

[Sabinus]

Sgt did personally agree to it because of ego. They cite wanting the UK to be a superpower again as one of the benefits of Brexit. He doesn't seem to understand the position Britain is in now.

[drcongo]

Britain never was a super power, it was an evil empire hell bent on oppressing "inferior" peoples. It's no wonder Brexit was so popular with racists.

[JCattheATM]

I know he did, but my point wasn't referencing just him but the thousands who think like him.

[saubeidl]

The Red Tape is the super power. From India to Mercosur, from Canada to Japan, the world follows rules we write.

You gave up the ability to dictate the rules. You'll still have to follow them.