[incrudible]

The cost of "perfecting" an idea here is ruining the broader ecosystem. It is much much better for an API to be kinda crappy (but stable) for historical reasons than dealing with the constant churn and fragmentation caused by, for example, the fifth revision of that URL routing library that everyone uses because everyone uses it. It only gets worse by the orthogonal but comorbid attitude of radically minimizing the scope of dependencies.

[TheDong]

Which has been working great for go, right. They shipped "log" and "flag" stdlib packages, so everyone uses... well, not those. I think "logrus" and "zap" are probably the most popular, but there's a ton of fragmentation in Go because of the crappy log package, including Go itself now shipping two logging packages in the stdlib ('log/slog').

Rust on the other hand has "log" as a clear winner, and significantly less overall fragmentation there.

[Ferret7446]

I think you underestimate how many programs use log and flag, if you just focus on the few (bloated) popular projects.

[dwattttt]

> It is much much better for an API to be kinda crappy (but stable) for historical reasons

But this does more than just add a maintenance burden. If the API can't be removed, architectural constraints it imposes also can't be removed.

e.g. A hypothetical API that guarantees a callback during a specific phase of an operation means that you couldn't change to a new or better algorithm that doesn't have that phase.

[TheDong]

Yes you can, and Go has done exactly that.

Realize the "log" api is bad? Make "log/slog". Realize the "rand" api is bad? Make "rand/v2". Realize the "image/draw" api is bad? Make "golang.org/x/image/draw". Realize the "ioutil" package is bad? Move all the functions into "io".

Te stdlib already has at least 3 different patterns for duplicating API functionality with minor backwards-incompatible changes, and you can just do that and mark the old things as deprecated, but support it forever. Easy enough.

[dwattttt]

> mark the old things as deprecated, but support it forever

Is that 'supported'? A library that uses a callback that exists in 'log' but not in 'slog'; it'll compile forever, but it'll never work.

'Compiles but doesn't work' does not count as stable in my book. It's honestly worse than removing the API: both break, but one of them is noticed when the break happens.

[bobbylarrybobby]

I think “the fifth revision of that URL routing library that everyone uses” is a much less common case than “crate tried to explore a problem space, five years later a new crate thinks it can improve upon the solution”, which is what Rust’s conservatism really helps prevent. When you bake a particular crate into std, competitor crates now have a lot of inertia to overcome; when they're all third-party, the decision is not “add a crate?” but “replace a crate?” which is more palatable.

Letting an API evolve in a third-party crate also provides more accurate data on its utility; you get a lot of eyes on the problem space and can try different (potentially breaking) solutions before landing on consensus. Feedback during a Rust RFC is solicited from a much smaller group of people with less real-world usage.

[skydhash]

Is there that much to explore in a given problem space. I believe a lot of people will take the good enough, but stable API over the unstable one that is striving for an unknown state of perfection. The customer of a library are programmers, they can patch over stuff for their own use case. A v2 can be released once enough pain points have been identified, but there should be a commitment to support v1 for a while.