[tripletao]

Are they claiming that ChaCha20 deviates measurably from equally distributed in k dimensions in tests, or just that it hasn't been proven to be equally distributed? I can't find any reference for the former, and I'd find that surprising. The latter is not surprising or meaningful, since the same structure that makes cryptanalysis difficult also makes that hard to prove or disprove.

For emphasis, an empirically measurable deviation from k-equidistribution would be a cryptographic weakness (since it means that knowing some members of the k-tuple helps you guess the others). So that would be a strong claim requiring specific support.

[mananaysiempre]

By O’Neill’s definition (§2.5.3 in the report) it’s definitely not equidistributed in higher dimensions (does not eventually go through every possible k-tuple for large but still reasonable k) simply because its state is too small for that. Yet this seems completely irrelevant, because you’d need utterly impossible amounts of compute to actually reject the hypothesis that a black-box bitstream generator (that is actually ChaCha20) has this property. (Or I assume you would, as such a test would be an immediate high-profile cryptography paper.)

Contrary to GP’s statement, I can’t find any claims of an actual test anywhere in the PCG materials, just “k-dimensional equdistribution: no” which I’m guessing means what I’ve just said. This is, at worst, correct but a bit terse and very slightly misleading on O’Neill’s part; how GP could derive any practical consequences from it, however, I haven’t been able to understand.

[tripletao]

As you note, a 256-bit CSPRNG is trivially not equidistributed for a tuple of k n-bit integers when k*n > 256. For a block cipher I think it trivially is equidistributed in some cases, like AES-CTR when k*n is an integer submultiple of 256 (since the counter enumerates all the states and AES is a bijection). Maybe more cases could be proven if someone cared, but I don't think anyone does.

Computational feasibility is what matters. That's roughly what I meant by "measurable", though it's better to say it explicitly as you did. I'm also unaware of any computationally feasible way to distinguish a CSPRNG seeded once with true randomness from a stream of all true randomness, and I think that if one existed then the PRNG would no longer be considered CS.

[jmalicki]

You care when you're trying to generate random vectors which may be of a different size, and if you are biasing your sample.

Is it enough to truly matter? Maybe not, but does it also matter if 80 bit SHA1 only has 61 bits?

[tripletao]

Nobody cares even then, because any bias due to theoretical deviation from k-equidistribution is negligible compared to the desired random variance, even if we average trials until the Sun burns out. By analogy, if we're generating an integer between 1 and 3 with an 8-bit PRNG without rejection, then we should worry about bias because 2^8 isn't a multiple of 3; but if we're using a 256-bit PRNG then we should not, even though 2^256 also isn't a multiple.

If you think there's any practical difference between a stream of true randomness and a modern CSPRNG seeded once with 256 bits of true randomness, then you should be able to provide a numerical simulation that detects it. If you (and, again, the world's leading cryptographers) are unable to adversarially create such a situation, then why are you worried that it will happen by accident?

SHA-1 is practically broken, in the sense that a practically relevant chosen-prefix attack can be performed for <$100k. This has no analogy with anything we're discussing here, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.

You wrote:

> There are concepts like "k-dimensional equidistribution" etc. etc... where in some ways the requirements of a PRNG are far, far, higher than a cryptographically sound PRNG

I believe this claim is unequivocally false. A non-CS PRNG may be better because it's faster or otherwise easier to implement, but it's not better because it's less predictable. You've provided no reference for this claim except that PCG comparison table that I believe you've misunderstood per mananaysiempre's comments. It would be nice if you could either post something to support your claim or correct it.