[jpgvm]

> what % of this labor could be sourced domestically and what actually needs to be imported?

None of it? The way I see it is every top tier programmer in America is already employed.

I think the inevitable outcome would just be the big multi-nationals (FAANG in particular) would just hire more in their international offices and spread out their engineering org more instead of remaining so American heavy and using immigration to centralise staffing.

There probably isn't a world where these huge companies decide to simply not take advantage of the global talent pool, if they don't exploit it someone else will and they can't have that.

[Dig1t]

“Top tier programmer”

Apple employees thousands of H1Bs, many of them literally push buttons and file bug reports all day and don’t know how to code or barely know how. I know this because I’ve worked with teams of them for a decade at Apple.

These are not top tier talent type people, this is work that my mom could do, but Apple can pay much less by bringing people over from India, Pakistan, China to do this work instead of finding Americans to do it.

[kjellsbells]

Not disputing this, but working thru this, lets say H-1Bs suddenly become really hard for companies to get. I dont think it follows that a ton of IT jobs suddenly open up for Americans. Isnt it more likely that all those H-1B jobs are replaced by workers in offshore locations?

Or, that those jobs disappear and are not replaced at all. Or, that the jobs go and the work is expected to happen (somehow) with AI tools operated by whoever is left.

My point is, whatever you or I might think about H-1B misuse, both the people who want to keep it, and the people who want to eliminate it are not really friends of the American worker.

[Dig1t]

Many of these roles, such as the ones where people just push buttons and send emails, could be done by Americans with just a little bit of training. But there is no incentive for Apple to train Americans or invest in their existing employees when they can just claim “labor shortage” and hire someone from India instead.

We know this works already because this is how the country worked until 1990, when they created the H1B and massively increased all other types of immigration. By 1990 the US was the undisputed powerhouse of the world, and it was built completely with native born labor.

There was plenty of offshoring that happened during the 90’s but the companies that rely on it heavily do not end up winning. In the end nothing beats Americans working in America and that’s obvious just by looking at the stock market.

The people who want to eliminate the H1B are absolutely pro-worker in my opinion. It’s a tool that’s used almost exclusively to suppress wages, the quality of the workers is almost always significantly worse than the American equivalent and serves only to boost profits for the company owners at the expense of their own workers.

[kjellsbells]

My point is that even if H-1B were eliminated and all the people that hold them today returned to their home countries, employers' response is less likely to be "we need to hire and train more Americans, asap" but more like "let's expand our overseas operations, so we can get work done without paying Americans".

In other words eliminating immigration like this is only half the solution of you don't also have a way to stop offshoring.

[mvc]

Why _should_ Apple employ only Americans (whether in America or elsewhere)?

They generate revenue all over the world. Seems only right that their costs should be distributed around the world too.

[Dig1t]

Because they are an American company which benefits from all of the advantages of this country, and indeed would not exist at all without this country's people. They rely on the tax incentives, stable society, culture, cities, infrastructure, and PEOPLE of this country. It's a company founded by Americans in the USA, they have reaped the benefits of everything that comes from this country.

Do you think that Apple could or would have been founded in India? or China? Or Brazil? Obviously not. It's obviously the product of this country.

Is your argument that since Apple makes money in other countries that they should transcend nations and become their own super-national entity? That they should not have to follow the rules or even try to benefit their home country?

At the end of the day that is what's happening. These mega corps have basically usurped the power of nations and made their own rules. They have changed the immigration system to give themselves the power to import cheap labor at the expense of the country that allowed them to exist in the first place. We as workers are saying that we should use the power of government to push back against this practice.

[mvc]

I think Apple benefits from the tax incentives, "stable" society, and freedoms in my country too. And it employs many people here and elsewhere around the world and there is no chance it could sell as many units as it does without those people

https://share.google/aimode/k9blzn3HX1PvqOTFO

Maybe Apple wouldn't be founded anywhere else but it wouldnt be what it is without immigrants.

Even Steve Jobs was an immigrant.

[jpgvm]

> These are not top tier talent type people, this is work that my mom could do, but Apple can pay much less by bringing people over from India, Pakistan, China to do this work instead of finding Americans to do it.

H1Bs are not getting approved for these for years now.

Infosys and TechM exploited the crap out of it to do shit like this which caused the rules to be tightened massively.

These days you are only getting H1B for folks atleast earning 200k+ base.

[selridge]

I mean you could read the linked website where it points out we aren’t talking about top tier talent. It’s just shit IT jobs we used to pay Americans to do so they could be furries. Now we pay Indians to do it so they can act like they are better than Mexicans.

[weirdmantis69]

Many of the top tier companies (meta, Amazon, google, microsoft etc) have had massive layoffs in the 10's of thousands range. Those workers were top tier programmers. So you need to be quite delusional or uninformed to have your view point on the work force.

[jpgvm]

Bar was lowered massively during the COVID employment boom (with the exception of Apple really).

Unfortunately resetting the bar has massive collateral damage but it will sort itself out pretty quickly.

All the good ones will be re-employed within short order. The ones that the layoffs were trying to flush out with said layoffs will transition out of FAANG into lower-tier employers.