[jpgvm]

No. The talent shortage is not a myth. The unemployed/underemployed American programmer that can actually keep up is a myth. Everyone good (without additional baggage) is either a) employed or b) could be employed whenever they feel like it.

If you aren't good enough then don't be surprised the companies prefer an immigrant. You don't get an automatic American free pass for having less skills, experience, interviewing poorly, etc.

i.e skill issue.

Ending immigration for tech would simply mean far more global workers/offshoring in order to access the top tier talent via different means as that is the real reason all along.

Wage suppression was the old (and now largely incorrect) story. The visa is still exploitive, it should be amended to be a 10 year visa that is independent of employment so immigrants aren't screwed by layoffs.

[bradlys]

Work at faang/etc. I don’t see any notable difference between immigrant and non-immigrant. Arguably, one could say the Americans are better because they typically have less education and still manage to do the same job. Somehow managing to do the same job but with less training? That sounds like someone who is “better” to me.

[jpgvm]

You are proving my point - FAANG hires the top tier talent, and makes extensive use of both the global talent pool and sponsoring immigration in order to meet their needs.

The Americans you work with (along with your other co-workers) meet the bar.

If there were more Americans that met the bar they would employ them before taking on all the extra work and cost of immigration.

I'm not talking about Americans you work with. I'm talking about the mythical ones you don't work with that are somehow disadvantaged by H1B and thus unemployed/underemployed. You don't work with these people because they don't exist.

[bradlys]

You’re not really responding to my point. I’ve told you that Americans are in faang and don’t have the same level of education as all the immigrants. This goes in the face of what you’re saying. Americans by your measure are more intelligent and require less education to achieve the same results. (Entry to faang and doing the same quality of work)

[jpgvm]

I interpreted this: > I don’t see any notable difference between immigrant and non-immigrant

As your main point.

More educated or not doesn't actually matter, whether they meet the bar or not is all that matters no?

My over-arching point is if there were more Americans to be hired that meet the bar they will usually be hired before immigrants because they are less paperwork and money (immigration lawyers fees).

Also I think comparing to immigrant education isn't necessarily a great idea, immigrants need more on-paper education to simply clear the immigration requirements because most governments around the world place a higher emphasis on that than work experience or their salary. US in particular values years of education at a roughly 2:5 ratio vs work experience with 10 years of work experience necessary to qualify vs a 4 year degree.

If you are somehow implying immigrants are fundamentally less intelligent then yeah I don't know what to tell you but that is probably not correct.

[mythrwy]

You may be correct about many US programmers not keeping up, but the H1Bs I've seen in action, other than being more compliant, didn't seem to be much better and often worse.

"Top Talent". Ya, no not generally. Not from H1B. May get OK talent from time to time.

[vdqtp3]

> The unemployed/underemployed American programmer that can actually keep up is a myth.

Is your argument that the H1-B folks are better? That hasn't been my experience.

[jpgvm]

My argument is that the H1Bs meet the bar to be hired at their respective companies. Neither pool is inherently better but availability matters.

There are only so many American engineers that meet said bar, they are all either employed or choosing not to be employed.

The ones that don't meet the bar are either employed by smaller employers with lower bars that don't use H1B anyway or yes, maybe unemployed or transitioning to a new industry because they couldn't hack it.

The mythical group I am saying doesn't exist is engineers that are somehow perfectly capable of meeting FAANG bar but are somehow being displaced by H1B. That group doesn't exist.

[givemeethekeys]

When the incentives are so strong for a company to hire someone who will remain loyal for less pay, skills is definitely not the issue. The company can invest in the employee that is smart enough (and utterly unskilled), even if it costs them $100k up front.

[commonsense45]

I live on this principle: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Interesting lack of evidence for someone who calls themselves "Principal Software Engineer".

Joseph Glanville your name is in my notes in case I ever come across your application. Signed, a hiring manager.