[majormajor]

We concurrently see failures on both the "attempts to preserve liberty" and "attempts to preserve security" front, so let's stop arguing about abstract principles.

Quotes are pointless, discussion should be limited to what's happening on the ground. For any given thing that happens, do we think that it, specifically, is helpful or harmful.

It's trivial to reverse that quote: we can, and have, pushed to keep the US population armed with increasingly-advanced personal weapons (in the name of liberty) without actually gaining any protection against authoritarian styles of government use of force or surveillance as a result. While just making civilian-on-civilian violence easier and more lethal.

[themafia]

> discussion should be limited to what's happening on the ground

Does anyone actually have any idea what's actually happening "on the ground?"

> without actually gaining any protection against authoritarian styles of government use of force

There are three weapons for every man, woman, and child in the USA. You may enjoy more of this protection than you realize.

> While just making civilian-on-civilian violence easier and more lethal.

80% of murders happen after an argument. More suicides happen by firearm than murders by a factor of 2:1. States with lower population densities like Alaska have 6x the suicide rate of states with higher densities like New York. There's a reason people aren't given these statistics.

[rob74]

> More suicides happen by firearm than murders by a factor of 2:1

According to https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/05/what-the-..., this is true (if you squint) for 2023 (actually in 2023 murders were 38% of gun deaths, suicides and "others" add up to 62%, so 1.6 to 1), but the ratio varies widely for other years. According to the graph https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/05/what-the-..., murders and suicides were much closer together in 2021 - after that, the number of murders has dropped, while the number of suicides kept increasing.

[master-lincoln]

> There's a reason people aren't given these statistics.

What do you mean by that? You just gave people those statistics and they are widely available if people would want to look them up afaik.

Who should give other people statistics?

[watwut]

> You may enjoy more of this protection than you realize.

Americans are not safer then people in other comparable countries. They get shot more often.

In particular, they are much more likely to be shot by cops. And one of the hardest thing a layer can do is to prosecute a cop for it - they are simply untouchable unless stars align just right.