[YZF]

You got this all wrong.

First of all Netanyahu is not a war criminal. He has not been convicted of any war crimes. Even if for a microsecond we entertain the idea that the ICC has any relationship to justice or morality then people are still innocent until proven guilty. At least in the world we want to live in, i.e. not China or Russia or most other countries where freedom and human rights do not exist. And the ICC is a political circus not a real court.

The US is going after the ICC because it perceives the ICC to be working against its interests and for the interests of the non-free/non-democratic world. If the spinless Europeans weren't, eh, spineless, then they would be working with the US here.

It is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US. Just because you make a disclaimer doesn't make it less so. Israel has no hold over the US. Last I checked the Saudis and the Qatari have a lot more influence. It just happens that there is an alignment of interests here. The US doesn't wish to yield any sovereignty to these fake and corrupt institutions serving autocratic regimes any more than Israel does. Israel carries its weight in its alliance with the US far more than other so called allies.

Every decent person and country should be standing with other countries that support democracy and freedom. Yes, the current US president and administration are not great, and the current Israeli government ain't great either, but at least in democracies we can replace them. Unlike most of the world that's a) much worse b) people have no voice. So between the option of our imperfect western democracies and the likes of Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, I know what I'm picking. And those are the forces seeking to divide and destroy the west so that they can take over.

[unethical_ban]

> is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US.

Sure. Ignore AIPAC.

Sure, build a false dichotomy that we either support Israel unconditionally or we hate Jews and support every antidemocratic nation in the eastern hemisphere.

Sure, further propagate antisemitism by intentionally conflating any criticism of Israel the government with the religion of Judaism.

I can be critical of Qatar and Saudia Arabia and China and Russia and Israel, for all the necessary reasons.

[elzbardico]

I think the Cuban exiled community in Florida have too much of a hold on US politics as they leverage their local power a lot given FL is a swing state.

Weirdly, making this kind of criticism never warranted me a label of anti-Hispanic or anti-Cuban.

[YZF]

I would say it is borderline when you focus on the group rather than individuals. Also the Cubans haven't had the same history of racism as the Jewish people.

[reliabilityguy]

> Sure. Ignore AIPAC.

You mean American Jewry who uses their money as they see fit?

You do see a difference between Qatari money flooding the US and US money (from the Jews) advocating for things they want?

[unethical_ban]

I have a problem with any advocates of foreign governments having an outsized impact on my country's elections.

[b00ty4breakfast]

You're correct in that Israel doesn't have a hold over the US (it would be silly to assume that a pissant country could have the resources to control the [at time of writing] most prominent country in world), but they are a US client-state and thus receive preferential treatment when it suits US foreign-policy in the Middle East.

[YZF]

I can agree with this statement. If anything Israel does whatever the US tells it to do and is completely dependent on US support. client-state sounds like a reasonable description of the current reality.

[direwolf20]

It could be either way around, really. On the one hand, Israel has no military force apart from what the US gives it. On the other hand, Israel has the Epstein tapes (not the files) so it might be rational for a majority of US politicians to just do whatever it asks for.

[llm_nerd]

"He has not been convicted of any war crimes."

There is an arrest warrant out for him. He hasn't been convicted, but he should show up at that Hague and defend himself. When literally EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPED COUNTRY but the US and Israel is a member of the ICC, and those two happen to be largely the biggest perpetrators of war crimes, this "political theatre" act falls a bit flat.

Oh look, the US is committing terrorism and blowing up random boats again, even double tapping as yet another war crimin' activity. Howler. What a bastion of goodness. Yeah, positively no one cares what that terroristic plutocracy thinks is right or wrong.

"It is also totally antisemitic to say Israel has a stronghold over the US"

LOL, no it absolutely is not. The fact that Israel-apologists have to do this bit is pathetic business. It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction.

The US relationship with Israel makes literally zero sense. Israel offers absolutely nothing to the US but geopolitical problems. Nothing. The US constantly burns actually valuable relationships in the service of that nuclear-armed international pariah.

Congresspeople will literally, directly say Israel first. One member proudly wore his Israeli military uniform in the House. Just bizarre, unfathomable behaviour time and time again, and if anyone showed that sort of bizarre loyalty to any other country they would be rightly declared a foreign asset and a traitor. Oh look, congress gave Netanyahu a four minute standing ovation, apparently for his largess of trying to drag the US into wars and demanding US taxpayer dollars. What a great guy.

Bizarre stuff.

As to democracies...are we pretending the US is a democracy, or that it has rules and laws? I suspect the midterms are going to disabuse you of that foolish notion.

[YZF]

> It's intellectual garbage, immediately dismissible as a distraction.

Absolutely false. This is standard antisemitic MO. The "Jews" control the media, the "Jews" control the US, The "Jews" control money. This is yet another permutation of the age old antisemitism just s/jews/zionists/ and s/jews/israel/ it's used by the same people and with the same intent belief. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. The intellectual garbage is coming from people who claim this is not antisemitic.

US relationship with Israel makes perfect sense. It started during the cold war when Israel was aligned with the US against the Arab countries aligned with the USSR. The US gets to test its weapons systems and benefit from Israel defense technology know-how. Post 9/11 and with the rise of organizations like ISIS it also benefited the US greatly to have a partner in this unstable region called the middle east.

I'm not aware of any US congress member that has declared their allegiance to Israel trumps their being American. But hey, any single member of any parliament can always be off the rails and the US has no shortage of those. But give me a specific example? What is understandable is that Americans consider Israel and Israelis their friends and allies and at challenging times friends support their friends and not stab them in the back like some have done.

[llm_nerd]

>This is standard antisemitic MO ... The intellectual garbage is coming from people who claim this is not antisemitic.

This is that fun catch-22 where Israel-defenders use Jewishness as a pathetic human shield over any criticism of Israel, or relations with the same.

It's worn out its effectiveness. At this point it just looks pathetic.

>Post 9/11 and with the rise of organizations like ISIS it also benefited the US greatly to have a partner in this unstable region called the middle east.

Jordan, Qatar, Iraq, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and on and on. Boy, if only the US had partners in the region. Bases all over the place. What they really need is to coddle the primary antagonist of the region and that should really help!

>friends support their friends

Lets recap all the things Israel has done for the US. I will summarize the entire list below-

...

-fin

This is an entirely one-way relationship. And it's a bizarre, supplicant relationship that just boggles. Try-hard patriots will literally declare "We only fly the American flag"...and then fly an Israeli flag.

[YZF]

Obviously you prefer to coddle with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Qatar, Iraq, UAE and such. Good for you. It's somewhat amusing Iraq made the list.

Since you're too lazy to look this up I compiled a list for you with the help of AI:

1. Military & Intelligence Benefits

The US military benefits from battle-tested Israeli technology and intelligence in a volatile region.

    Missile Defense Architecture: The most prominent example is the Iron Dome. The US invested heavily in its development, and in return, gained access to its technology. The US Army and Marine Corps have purchased Iron Dome batteries and components (such as the Tamir interceptor) for their own air defense needs. Furthermore, the Arrow 3 system (co-developed by Boeing and Israel Aerospace Industries) provides the US with critical data on high-altitude missile interception.

    Counter-Terrorism & Urban Warfare: Israel’s experience in urban combat and counter-terrorism has shaped US military doctrine. After 9/11 and during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the US military studied Israeli tactics for detecting IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices), tunnel warfare, and minimizing civilian casualties in dense urban environments.

    Drone Technology: Israel was a pioneer in Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). In the 1980s, the US Navy procured Israeli "Pioneer" drones, which were used effectively in the 1991 Gulf War. This technology helped jumpstart the modern US drone program.

    Intelligence Sharing: Israel provides the US with high-level human and signals intelligence (HUMINT and SIGINT) regarding the Middle East, Iran’s nuclear program, and terrorist networks, often serving as the "eyes and ears" for the West in areas where the US has limited footprint.

2. Technology & Science Benefits

Many technologies ubiquitous in the US economy were developed or significantly advanced by Israeli R&D, often by US companies operating there.

    Computing & Semiconductors: Major American tech giants like Intel, Microsoft, Apple, and Google have massive R&D centers in Israel.

        Intel Israel was responsible for designing some of the most critical computer processors in history, including the 8088 (the brain of the first IBM PC) and the architecture for modern laptop processors (Centrino/Core) that prioritize power efficiency.

    Cybersecurity: Israel is a global hub for cybersecurity. US companies and government agencies frequently rely on Israeli software and expertise to protect critical infrastructure, banking systems, and corporate data from cyberattacks.

    Medical Innovation:

        PillCam: The swallowable camera for gastrointestinal diagnostics was developed in Israel.

        Cancer Treatment: Doxil, the first FDA-approved nano-drug (used for treating various cancers), was developed at Hebrew University.

        Multiple Sclerosis: Copaxone, a leading drug for treating MS, was developed by Teva Pharmaceuticals in Israel.

3. Environmental & Agricultural Solutions

As the US (particularly California and the Southwest) faces water scarcity, it has increasingly adopted Israeli methods.

    Water Desalination: Israel is a world leader in desalination and wastewater recycling. The largest desalination plant in the Western Hemisphere, located in Carlsbad, California, was designed and built by an Israeli company (IDE Technologies) to provide drinking water to San Diego County.

    Drip Irrigation: The modern concept of drip irrigation—which saves massive amounts of water by delivering it directly to plant roots—was invented in Israel (by Netafim). This technology is now standard practice in American agriculture, helping US farmers increase yields while reducing water usage.

4. Economic Benefits

    Return on Aid: A significant portion of the military aid the US provides to Israel (currently under a Memorandum of Understanding) must be spent on purchasing US-manufactured military equipment. This effectively acts as a subsidy for the US defense industrial base, supporting American jobs at companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Raytheon.

    Corporate Acquisitions: US companies frequently acquire Israeli startups to integrate their technology. For example, Google bought Waze (navigation) for nearly $1 billion, and Intel bought Mobileye (autonomous driving) for $15 billion, bringing that intellectual property and market dominance to US parent companies.

[llm_nerd]

"Obviously you prefer to coddle with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Qatar, Iraq, UAE and such"

Uh...do you think that's the dichotomy? Do you think it's one or the other?

The US has relationships with lots of countries. Give and take relationships.

No other relationships has the sort of pathetic supplicant behaviour that we see with Israel. American politicians are not hoisting Qatar or Saudi Arabia flags. They aren't giving pathetic fawning four minute standing ovations for random criminal leaders of those countries. They aren't saying "Qatar First" or telling their voters that their first order of business is visiting Qatar to show deference. That would be bizarre behaviour that would immediately raise enormous red flags.

What a bizarre take.

[YZF]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-formal...

I mean it's just a gift. No favors expected in return?

There are absolutely US politicians who are advocating for those other countries.

We already covered the not a criminal until proven guilty angle.

But yes, the US has considered Israel a close ally and friend and its leaders are well received in the US as are US leaders in Israel.

And yes, the not criminal leader of Saudi Arabia who had a journalist chopped up and violates the rights of his people is also received with great honors in the USA.

[snowpid]

" The US is going after the ICC because it perceives the ICC to be working against its interests and for the interests of the non-free/non-democratic world. If the spinless Europeans weren't, eh, spineless, then they would be working with the US here. " Why? What are the interest of the free world?

"Every decent person and country should be standing with other countries that support democracy and freedom." Netanyahu has some problems with the constitutional court in Israel + corruption allegations. If he succeeds, Israel might become authoritarian and though there is a growing antisemitism some Israel consider leaving Israel because of him.

[YZF]

As we used to say when we were kids, if your grandmother had wheels she would be a bus.

Yes, Israel's democracy is under threat, very much fueled by those same external forces impact other western countries, social media and such.

The interest of the free world. In my opinion. Is to promote freedom and not give power to countries that are not free or democratic (which is most of the world). The UN primarily represents the non-free forces and its institutions similarly the same.

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/523711/Iran-elected-as-vice...

We need to fight for democracy in Israel and the US just the same way we fight for it everywhere.

[snowpid]

"The interest of the free world. In my opinion. Is to promote freedom and not give power to countries that are not free or democratic (which is most of the world)"

Currently I see Netanyahu and Trump as very opposing forces to freedom.

What is the difference between a free country and a dictatorship? In a free country even the government can be sued and brought into prison. Netanyahu (might be corrupt) and Trump (who is clearly corrupt) hate this fact. Hence they might be change the free democracies. And supranational justice is one way to make head of the states be responsible for their actions. Hence it is in the interest of the free world to support the ICC etc. And oppose people like Trump and Netanyahu.

[elzbardico]

Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please.

[YZF]

It is a democracy within its legal internationally recognized borders. There is no apartheid in Israel. It's no more "ethno-state" than let's say Japan or Switzerland, in fact it is a lot more ethnically diverse with 2 million Arab citizens.

There is the problem of the occupied territories (which Israel's law considers occupied in alignment with international practices) where people in limbo due to the unresolved status. That's not apartheid (despite Israeli citizens being treated differently in those territories). Maybe legally and morally questionable but how we got here and why we can't fix this is also relevant.

[reliabilityguy]

> Israel is a ethno-state and an apartheid regime. Don’t call this a Democracy, please.

Ireland and Poland (as well as many other countries) are ethno-states too. Did they stop being democracies?

Last I checked, the vote of israeli non-Jews counted the same way as the israeli Jewish one.

How can Israel be an apartheid state if Arabs in Israel routinely take highest positions in both public and private sector? It makes zero sense.

[elzbardico]

No. Poland is not an ethno state, neither Ireland.

[reliabilityguy]

Ofc they are. The right of return in those are for poles or Irish only (respectively).

[elzbardico]

Tl;Dr version: Israeli Propaganda version of the facts.

[reliabilityguy]

Instead of saying that something is propaganda, you can disprove factually incorrect points with evidence.

NH is not reddit or twitter.