[movedx]

I’m going to do a video on this soon, but I was able to get Ergo IRCd and TheLounge up and running pretty quickly; https://chat.crilly.au/

I’ll be building a new platform on these two technologies and using Zoom or something else like Jitsi on the side for video/audio sharing.

It’s time accept the loss of “features” and go back to something simpler but also something that can still be here in 38 years — like IRC has been.

[Aurornis]

> It’s time accept the loss of “features” and go back to something simpler

I guess I have a hard time understanding these calls to switch to a platform that has even fewer features than the unverified Discord accounts. The blog post is incorrect in claiming that verification will be mandatory. It will only be necessary to access certain features and content. For simple IRC-style chats or even for voice chats with gaming friends, no verification is required.

The average Discord user, or even the 98th percentile user, isn’t going to be looking to switch to a platform that isn’t a replacement for the features they use. They’re just going to not verify their accounts and move on.

[taurath]

Yet people are en-mass switching from discord. Anonymity on the internet is important for a lot of reasons and is part of why it’s good. If hacker news required an ID to access who’s hiring and ask HN threads, people would move off.

Communities aren’t about the “platform features” they’re about the environment. As for profit CEO after CEO fail to recognize time after time

[Aurornis]

> Yet people are en-mass switching from discord.

Some people are, but I would bet money on it being a very small number of people who switch platforms. The HN bubble is not representative of the average user.

This is similar to when HN thought Reddit's userbase was going to shrink after the API changes (it didn't) or when the internet thought Netflix was going to lose subscribers when they cracked down on account sharing (they grew, not shrank).

A few blog posts about people switching to IRC or setting up their own Matrix servers in protest isn't representative of a mass movement.

[movedx]

> This is similar to when HN thought Reddit's userbase was going to shrink after the API changes (it didn't) or when the internet thought Netflix was going to lose subscribers when they cracked down on account sharing (they grew, not shrank).

I don't think these are the wins you think they are.

The average user simply doesn't know any better, and likely isn't even aware of the API changes Reddit made. The user base didn't grow because of those changes: it's just no one cared. As more people come onto Reddit post-API-changes, their perception of normal differs from ours "who remember the good old days." The platform is growing because it's the central point at which everyone is gathering; the network effect is massive... that's not good, mate. That's the perfect platform to target with your political ads, designed to sway entire populations to your way of thinking.

Netflix cracking down and seeing growth on the platform was a win... for DRM. For publishers, producers, and studios. No one else won there, bro. The consumer was just forced to pay, that's all. Netflix won.

All that's really happening is the companies are finding ways of extracting more wealth from those out there who want to us their products and services. And I guess that's fine - that's the system we're in now - but it's not the "ha gottem!!" argument you think it is... it's actually more of a self-own, because you, me, and the other guy all got owned, son.

It's time to wake up, Mr Anderson: convenience at the scale of Reddit, Netflix, Discord, and more, can be a force for good, but it's not going to be. It's going to be a force for profits.

These are _bad_ services that aren't healthy. They keep you always connected; always on; and always drinking from the firehose.

And that's why we need slower, simpler offerings.

[Aurornis]

> The average user simply doesn't know any better, and likely isn't even aware of the API changes Reddit made. The user base didn't grow because of those changes: it's just no one cared.

That was literally the point I was making.

The comment I was responding to was claiming people were leaving Discord en masse. They're not.

> No one else won there, bro. The consumer was just forced to pay, that's all. Netflix won.

How did this conversation get to the point where people paying for a service they use is considered some sort of massive loss? That's just... how businesses work.

[movedx]

> The blog post is incorrect in claiming that verification will be mandatory. It will only be necessary to access certain features and content.

I think it's the writing on the wall that's important here, mate. This is only the first step.

[donkeybeer]

The point is no policing at a platform level. Even jf jts just text only irc that would make it better than discord in it's current state.

[stackghost]

I still use a few niche IRC channels and run my own internal IRC network as a home automation message bus, so I'm a fan of IRC for its simplicity, but honestly: IRC really does need a modernization.

Things like image embeds, "markdown lite" formatting, and cross-device synchronization are now considered table stakes. There are always going to be some EFnet-type grognards who resist progress because reasons, but they should be ignored.

IRCv3 and Ergo support some of what's needed already (and in a backwards-compatible way!) but client support just isn't there yet, particularly on mobile.

[duskwuff]

> Things like [...] are now considered table stakes.

One other feature that's absolutely considered table stakes now is persistent server-side history, with the ability to edit and delete messages. Modern chat services are less like IRC, and more like a web forum with live updates.

(Yes, you can poorly emulate server-side history on IRC with a bouncer. That's not enough, and it's a pain for users to set up.)

[wolvoleo]

There's also quassel which solves the problem a bit like a bouncer but it's way more integrated, it just loads the scrollback on demand instead of just banging the latest 200 lines into my buffer when I connect. Solves the problem perfectly IMO and there's a really excellent android client.

[duskwuff]

It's still not server-side history, though - you can't join a channel and see what happened before you joined, or edit a message you've already sent. It's just a slightly cleaner implementation of an IRC bouncer.

[wolvoleo]

Hmm no but that's usually a good thing. I've had some late night chats where I knew all the other people around and it would not be so cool if anyone else could just join and scroll back to it.

In fact this is the reason some irc networks blocked matrix bridges at first (they now have settings to disable this)

I'm not saying mainstream people should use IRC though. Matrix is better for that.

[duskwuff]

It's situational. In a lot of contexts, especially in large public chats, being able to see history when you join is perfectly fine and good.

Telegram lets group admins choose whether members can see history from before they join, which is the perfect solution (IMO).

[stackghost]

>One other feature that's absolutely considered table stakes now is persistent server-side history, with the ability to edit and delete messages.

Indeed.

Ergo offers server-side history but I'm not sure it supports edit/delete yet.

[movedx]

> Ergo offers server-side history but I'm not sure it supports edit/delete yet.

I don't think it does, no. I've only just started using it, though.

[outime]

It's time to accept that 99% of people will not accept the loss of "features" (not sure why that's in quotes) or move to something objectively inferior for their needs i.e. something that requires more knowledge instead of simply opening an app where everything is ready to use.

Coming from a former heavy IRC user who's not going back except for nostalgia trips.

[movedx]

I'll happily set up a platform and be friends with the other 1% - that's 60,000,000 people.

I'm sure I'll be fine.

[zanellato19]

Only a small handful of people will do something like that. For most people, losing people is a nonstarter

[movedx]

I'm happy to let people go. They're adults (or are they... gasp! Now I get it) so they'll be fine and so will I.